 |
|
| | >>> Click
here to download Final Fantasy Ringtones |
|
| View Poll Results: The better composer? | |||
| Nobuo Uematsu (Final Fantasy series) |     | 19 | 70.37% |
| Yasunori Mitsuda (Chrono series) |    | 8 | 29.63% |
| Voters: 27. You may not vote on this poll | |||
  |
| | LinkBack | Thread Tools |
| Cid's Knight  |
#17  I will "flagrantly disagree" about your method of choosing the better composer cause your method is too subjective. Case in point is our disagreement over Xenogears/Chrono Cross. How can we compare the best they have to offer when we can't even agree what each composer's best offerings are? While I feel CC is a great soundtrack, I feel Xenogears is better. Another problem is that in my experience and knowledge; even bad composers and musicians can have one stellar album and if the rest of their work cannot follow, I don't see the point in saying they are "the best" cause how can a truly great composer do one really great work and never live up to it again? This leads me to my one statement which you already touched upon earlier... To be fair, I do feel this matters cause once again, saying who had the most influential to you is too subjective. When you say it like that, I wonder why we should even debate this topic? Because there is no way you could possible get us to understand exactly the same way you do; so debating is kind of a moot point imho.  I should have explained this better. This goes back to your statement about Nobuo always being consistently good (though I'd rather say excellent). I feel this is a major factor though. Many musicians and composers I've listened to can be consistent to a point. Most can be good for a few years, and the really talented (like Mitsuda) can be good for a decade or more; but Nobuo has been consistently excellent for 20+ years now. I can't even think of mainstream artist and musicians who have been able to lay down wonderful and provocative music like that for over 20 years. Most fall into a slump, usually after the second or third album but Nobuo has produced some of the best gaming soundtracks in the minds of fans and critics alike. His library of musical compositions is throughout his history as well, not just a "he was good back in the day but he hasn't been up to par in a decade" nonsense like so many others. This is why I said Mitsuda can reach this goal cause I feel he's on his way there as well. He's past the ten year mark; I'm sure he will still be lending us beautiful music for another ten.  I feel longevity and consistency are important in an objective discussion of "best composer" I ordered it last night after I found it for a reasonable price. I have a few tracks on my computer (got the bonus CD with my pre-order of the game back in the day) and I have the Square Vocal track which I bought solely for a copy of Radical Dreamers as its one of my favorite tracks from CC. Its been on the list and hopefully next month I can get a copy of the FFIX soundtrack and the complete Persona 3 soundtrack with the full version of Burn My Dread. Listen to CT, Gears, and CC back to back or at least a track from each in that order and I feel you will understand what I mean. Xenogears has several musical pieces that feel like expanded CT tracks and other compositions that show Mitsuda's use of complex arrangements he uses for CC... Not to mention he started on his Celtic kick in Gears with tracks like Small Two of Pieces ~ Restored Pieces and Stars of Tears Really, when you listen to his music back to back and chronological order (pun unintended) you will notice Mitsuda's style and his growth as artist. His music really does build on each other. Damn straight I believe its played during the scene where Shion comforts M.O.M.O. after Jr. reveals the truth about Mizrahi. It may have also been played during the Shion flashback where Shion chats with Kevin about KOS-MOS the night before her activation. We'll have to disagree cause I feel Xenogears was greater than Chrono Cross. Saga is good but its not my favorite style he's used. CT is pure win though.  I can understand this but I get this feeling from both composers which is why I can't decide who I personally favor. Both composers have made incredible musical scores that inspire and help me with my own creative works. Bonds of Sea and Fire and Epitaph have always been inspirational tracks for me. I wouldn't go in comparing it to those soundtracks (CT and CC), technology has come a far way and you missed the chance that fans had by being blown away by the complexity and technological achievements that produced this soundtrack. I feel it would be better to listen to FFV, then VI and then listen to VII again to see the growth and major difference between the three compositions. Then afterwards begin an assessment compared to Mitsuda's work. Better to compare the artist to himself before others. V to me is an experimental OST, Nobuo used it as a means to really immerse himself into the technology and thus the quality of the arrangements vary. Most of the soundtrack is amazing but it still feels like an extension of the older games except with a few surprising tracks like Battle on the Big Bridge, Dear Friends, and Legend of the Deep Forest. These tracks showed Uematsu experimenting with what could be produced with the technology at hand with the SNES/S.FAMICOM. He found a means to create sounds that sounded like instruments (though a bit synthesized) and with this he produced VI's soundtrack which holds a theme and style with every track. This is something you don't see in any of his earlier works but VI was created with an Opera theme and Nobuo utilized his new knowledge to create the VI soundtrack which actually feels like an orchestrated work despite being on the SNES. The soundtrack is much more complex than his previous efforts with a few exceptions and when you listen to VII's OST, you can hear the influences. Aerith's Theme feels like a piece that was inspired more from Aria Di Mezzo Carattere. The VI OST utilized composition techniques and styles not heard any other video game music at its time, Dancing Mad, the final boss theme, is composed as a traditional classical piece with four movements and the entire soundtrack utilizes leitmotifs with a level of complexity and skill not seen at the time. I just feel bad that you may not see it that way. Part of its splendor came from being there when it was first heard. It really does stand apart from all other soundtracks at its time and it wasn't until Mitsuda did Chrono Trigger that we heard anything on its scale. In fact, it was partly the reason I was drawn to Mitsuda cause until CT no one had composed anything on VI's scale. From reading Mitsuda's interviews concerning CT's OST. You can actually credit Nobuo more than just his few tracks, he also oversaw the music composition and helped Mitsuda beyond finishing a few tracks. I wouldn't be surprised if Nobuo was the one who showed him how to push the technology to create the musical tracks Mitsuda wanted. Why settle for just the original? I agree you should listen but also check out the arranged and piano version. Many of Nobuo's older tracks come to life when you hear it on a real instrument. Besides, you would be doing yourself a disservice if you didn't hear the orchestrated arrangement of Aria Di Mezzo Carattere Last edited by Wolf Kanno; 07-10-2009 at 08:56 AM.. |
07-10-2009, 08:08 AM
|  
|
| |
 | Phew! Thanks, Wols Kanno, you said basically what I had to say in here This is the most heated discussion I have ever participated in. I'll just add one thing. VN, you're saying Mitsuda inspires you... An argument for who is more inspiring is arguing wether Mozart or Beethoven is the better composer, or something closer to our era - is Claude Debussy superior to Maurice Ravel. I'll say that listening to Uematsu's and Hamauzu's (Mitsuda's sometimes, too) inspired me to want to become a composer. Heck, now if I compose something, even though I desperately try for it to be otherwise, it still sounds a lot like Uematsu!  I amd tired of the major-minor scale system. And yet all these guys use it in a fresh new way - because they're untainted by Bach's evil invention that is diatonic function. Really, how a track feels is all about harmony and the harmonic sense of these guys (Hamauzu's especially) move me. Hamauzu has a terrific sense of harmony (combining elements of impressionism and expressionism), but it's Nobuo's balance between ingenius melodies and beautiful harmonies that makes him the best composer out of the three. His music is the one that moves me the most, and yet I try to be objective in saying why he is the best... I one day hope to become a composer like him...Last edited by The White Wizard of Fynn; 07-11-2009 at 12:25 AM.. |
|
07-10-2009, 09:03 AM
|
|
 | As a prominent member on my former boards once said: "Jesus frigging Buddha." Mitsuda is losing.  Not certain what you mean. This discussion revolves around a question that has two legitimate answers, and because the only objective "facts" we can work with are statistical (i.e. the size of the composers' respective bodies of work) and have no business being the ultimate deciding factors, only the subjective remains. There exists no objective measuring bar for music, after all, by which Mitsuda might score "7 points " or Uematsu "5 stars". If one wanted to be as objective as possible about this whole discussion, in fact, I would expect such a person to completely limit his analysis to the mechanics -- chord progression, technical flawlessness of countermelodies, etc. -- and I would call him on every reference to how "enjoyable" he finds one piece of music or another, which would betray the objective intentions of his argument. Sure, you have made reference to the irrefutable fact that Uematsu's resumé dwarfs Mitsuda's in terms of size, but so, for example, does the resumé of Britney Spears (  ). Until you use some subjective standard of your own to determine that Uematsu's compositions are both numerous and "good", all you have are the numbers, mate.Just to be clear, I find it perfectly valid that you should use the argument that Uematsu has maintained a high quality of composition for, what, in excess of twenty years, but we should all receive that argument as precisely what it is: an individual perspective on an issue that has no objective resolution. Mitsuda's music has the greater effect on me, and I prefer it to Uematsu's. That is pretty much the definitive statement of my reasons for casting my vote the way I did. Uematsu was given his shot, and though I love much of the man's work and listen to it regularly, he frankly did not have a photon's chance in a black hole of actually winning. I say this with the intention to belittle Uematsu as little as humanly possible, and elevate Mitsuda. I am willing to discuss other issues, such as the influence the two composers have had on their shared business, or the relative quantities of work they have produced, but they are frankly irrelevant to both my vote and how I justify it; I simply enjoy the discussion, and 'tis the only reason I am still here. Huh . . . Methinks a bit of a misunderstanding is at work here. When I referenced the concept of "comparing the best works of each composer" to determine which one is "better", I meant that this comparison should take place at an individual level; I did not mean to suggest that we (as two individuals, or as a forum) could use that method to come up with an answer with which we would all agree. Such a method does not exist, as far as I am concerned. I simply suggest that the best way for anyone to determine their answer to this thread would be to compare what they perceive to be the best works of each composer. There must be variance amongst individual opinions; it is why there is not a single track from the Xenogears OST that would make my list of "Mitsuda's top twenty masterpieces", and why you are justified in using the whole damned soundtrack, if you wish. Ohhh . . .  I may just see where you are coming from now. When I first saw this thread ("who is the better composer?"), I immediately took it to mean "who, in your eyes, has produced the superior music?", to which my unequivocal answer was and is "Mitsuda". Your argument thus far seems to have taken a more literal approach to resemble something like: "who, in your eyes, is better in the business overall?", which could allow for other criteria. If so, then more power to you. Just know that you and I have used very different interpretations of the question to arrive at our answers, and neither of us is likely to agree on a methodology, let alone an actual opinion.That is a bit on the bewildering side, too. As I say, there are few objective slants one can take on an issue like this, and as such, all I intended to accomplish was an expression of my opinion and explanation/defense thereof as warranted. "Debating" with the intent of changing the opinions of others could not have been further from my mind . . . Fine, but again, unless subjective standards come in at some point, our discussion is not going anywhere. Beautiful. ^_^ Pun received. I had never considered it quite this way. As far as instrument quality goes, there is certainly a pre-existing evolution arc in place, and now that I think of it, certain Xenogears tracks do bear a sort of latent Chrono Cross aura, but the Chrono Trigger comparison is very much a new one on me. Most interesting . . . Just might have to try it. Hear. Hear.  Aye; there is wisdom in that. Read, understood . . . obviously won’t be doing any agreeing or disagreeing. Interesting. See, I only became aware of the video gaming world in general (including, for the most part, soundtracks) in recent years, so I really have missed the proverbial boat on many of the musical experiences that others (including, evidently, you) might regard as “revolutionary”. Indeed, even though I am not at all averse to collecting soundtracks that were created on synthesized instruments, the overwhelming majority of the music on my regular playlists is fully orchestral, simply because sound quality really does begin to matter when one is in the mood to surrender an indeterminate amount of time to simply listening. Even the Chrono Trigger soundtrack, while incomparable in-game, lacks the enormity of sound I prefer to accompany my moods, which is where remixers such as bLiNd, Right Stuff, and OCR’s Chrono Symphonic team are truly invaluable. ^_^ It is a shame that my interest in synthesized music has waned somewhat, but such was inevitable. Nevertheless, even if it must be presented in synthesized form, I will most assuredly recognize good music when I hear it. And hell, if the FFVI soundtrack is as impressive as testimony indicates, I could certainly exercise my self-given right to make exceptions – “Birth of God” from the FFVII OST, for instance, is a fairly permanent fixture on my Ipod (basically the four gigabytes’-worth “cream” of the 15 gigs “crop”). Eh, the details of that story are known only to Uematsu and Mitsuda; rather futile to theorize about the nature of a relationship when those involved will say no further. *Nod* Surely someone has done a decent remix project for every Final Fantasy in existence, and probably several of the pending ones. <_< >_> Or are we talking about an officially released orchestral remake? The latter would be quite an event . . . Careful about the comforts you take, wizard. This is a man who can battle with a weapon in each hand. Oh, relax. This is not “heated” in the least. Merely three relatively intelligent people having a relatively intelligent discussion. Which is precisely the argument I assumed we were having. I assume that you and Wolf Kanno have purchased quarters on the same boat, and you have taken this discussion to include other criteria beyond the question of “whose music is better”? How much ignorance am I putting on display if I admit to never having heard of either one? Is this an ambition you have taken to great lengths already? I.e. Are you a composer in some right, or is this one of your desires at present? Easy now.  This is not an expansion of the discussion that I am all that interested in making, but I will say that Bach was a god in his own right. The mesmerizing effects produced by his heavily layered minor-key organ toccatas and fugues, and the illusion of layers created by certain of his cello suites are quite remarkable. I am not very well equipped for a discussion of mechanical merits of his work, but he was certainly one of the most systematic and meticulous composers ever born, which explains some part of how he was able to produce such a staggering quantity of music in one insignificant little lifetime. He was capable of eliciting the full spectrum of murmurs, cries, and roars from the pipe organ (the lord of all this planet’s assembled instruments) with an unshakably deft hand. Well, you fail in the last regard, but the outcome was preordained. Try as you might, the question of “quantity” is the only objective measure one can use here, and any measure of “quality” is subjective right down to its fickle heart. You are as dirty as the rest of us, and you might find it encouraging that no composer was ever “clean”.Here’s hoping, mate. It would be nice if more people on this planet were not satisfied with insignificance. But as long as you are idolizing Uematsu, you might as well improve upon him. A decade or so into your prodigious career, if you ever get the urge to write your personal equivalent to Uematsu’s “Prelude” from the FFX soundtrack, resist.  |
|
07-12-2009, 01:15 AM
|
|
| | Welcome, mate, and please do.  *Mitsuda requires your vote, before he wipes this world clean of non-believers.* Who said that?  This is a friendly discussion, with no universal repercussions whatsoever, and members should be able to cast their votes without external influence. |
|
07-12-2009, 10:02 AM
|
|
| | But you know, going along the same lines, you just might have not found the right Uematsu track, the one that would move you. Oh, there is a lot of objective factors that can decide which music is better. Most of them require a very in-depth analysis, though You'd better! WK has a point and (as I said numerous times before) you're really missing out a lot. However, I recently came across Mitsuda's website... He has a lot of albums as well... So we might as well be missing something that he himself considers his best works... Who knows if they sound more like CT/CC or Xenogears/Xenosaga? No one said it isn't before More than you know... Oh, you'd be surprised. There are TONS of official arrangements of FF tracks. FF's IV to XI have their Piano Collections. III has an album whose name I can't remember, IV has Celtic Moon, V has Dear Friends, VI has Grand Finale, and I could go on for ages... I heard that that's one of the worst ways to battle - very impractical. It looks cool, though Fine, if not heated, then intelligent and long. I'm still excited, since there's not a lot of people who want to talk to me here  Ah, but people use other criteria to support their opinion on who of the two is better. I don't like Chopin myself much (which is quite ironic, considering the fact I'm Polish) simply because he doesn't move me that much. But when talking to another musician, I can use various arguments concerning his work that are objective... You know them, you just don't know you know, you know? Debussy's Syrinx is a timeless classic for the solo flute, while Ravel's Bolero is one of the most recognizable musical pieces in the world. I said "wanting to become" not "becoming". I compose sometimes, but I still have university ahead of me, so it's still an early plan for me. I never said he wasn't a genius (and there's a WHOLE lot more o his work than organ music) I just said diatonic function, while still genius, is evil. It's genius in the way that it's simple and revolutionized the whole sense of harmony in the upcoming ages. The second part is also a bit evil - while the major and minor scales had a decisive role in the history of music, I feel the system's been used up. And people have tried to break up with it ever since the late romantic era. Some were successful and now we have completely new systems that are crucial to further progress of music. And yet, despite the system's retirement, I still find myself unable to free myself from it while composing. It's a system that has tainted our sense of harmony in a way, that to make new music is a great ordeal... But I digress Do I fail? My last post was not objective, correct. But up until then I tried to use the most objective arguments. But as I said before, there are a lot more ways one can objectivelly prove which one is better Hey, that Prelude was unique I didn't like it much either, but it suited dream Zanarkand perfectly On a side note, I got Xenosaga. I LIKE the music in there for the most time. I loved the choral piece (SPOILER) . From what I see you just seem to be blinded by Chrono Cross!  |
|
07-12-2009, 10:42 AM
|
|
