Jenova & Sephiroth

[Forsaken Lover]

All manners of information, ranging from GameFAQS Plot Analysis on Final Fantasy VII to Wikipedia's article on Jenova to the Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Omega Guide indicates that Sephiroth’s will won out over Jenova’s and that events that transpired correlate to his own ambitions utilizing Jenova’s powers. This is not only ludicrous, but it is simply a pandering to the legions of Seph fanboys who pollute our humble little world. I provide the one major clear fact in direct opposition to the UOG’s assertions.

1) The Jenova Reunion
As we all saw in Shinra HQ, the container where Jenova’s corpse/body was stored was clearly knocked outwards, leading to the only sensible conclusion that Jenova’s body itself was moving from Shinra to a location of its designation. If the UOG is to be believed, Sephiroth is somehow causing her to do this. He has forced his cosmic viral space monster of immense telepathic, shapeshifting and magical power to emulate his form and murder those in the Headquarters. Now, let’s see this sensibly.


How the flying ##### is Sephiroth doing this? What overwhelming mastery of time and space has he gained in order to reach all the way out of his 5-year rest in Northern Crater and to Midgar and then encourage Jenova to awaken? The answer is simple. HE CAN’T. Sephiroth’s only contact with Jenova was when he ripped her head off in the Mt. Nibel Reactor and then she was still in a dormant state thanks to her cryo-freeze. Is it possible in that time he somehow left a lasting impression on her he would later use to make her his tool? If that’s the case they’re making, then the story is not only weak, it’s downright stupid.

We know from Ifalna’s testament to Professor Gast that Jenova possesses a predatory power to conceal her true form, take on the appearance of another (the Cetra, Sephiroth) and not only reach into their mind to pry away pieces of their memory and persona to help feed it intentions, but also implant fake memories and construct fake persona in others. This skill was utilized against the Cetra and effectively fooled them all till it was too late. Sephiroth, being composed primarily of Jenova Cells by which Jenova can activate her mental powers, is just as susceptible if not more so to her influence on his mind.

Presumably, when Jenova awakened and called upon her seemingly infinite reach to anything that has even the most minuscule portion of her in it, she found Sephiroth, her best chance at accomplishing her viral instinct to multiply, infect and destroy. Thus, she took on his likeness and utilized his powers. One can make a weak argument that at this time when she attempted to use him, he somehow transplanted his own will (which does not physically exist in her at all) his own genuine will over the mimicked will and persona Jenova had adopted. It’s not like she really absorbed his personality or powers. She is replicating them and it is a pretty flawed concept to say that Sephiroth somehow took control of this fake personality she copied to obtain dominance over her.

When Jenova came upon the Cetra, she took on a guise as one of them, using their own minds and thoughts against them while simultaneously shaping herself both physically and mentally like them, basically adopting the collective persona and memories of the Cetra as comoflage while she infected them. The conclusion is that Jenova did the same with Sephiroth after awakening. She felt her cells in him, used her influence and spawned a copy of both Sephiroth’s powers, personality and looks over her own body for her purposes. This makes complete sense as her physical influence in his body and her own ability to utilize every piece of her used collectively make it very probable whereas Sephiroth somehow enacting any sort of his own true will over her is illogical to the extreme.

Yet another counter argument filled with holes is that “Jenova and everyone ‘came’ to Sephiroth.” Well, my dearest fanboy, the reason they went to Sephiroth is because Sephiroth is in what appears to be a hibernation in Northern Crater. Jenova and the ‘clones’ of Sephiroth with Jenova Cells went to him because it is logical. They are mobile and he Is not. Also, Jenova might be seeking the gathered Lifestream there through her apparent instinctive knowledge as how best to corrupt and infect. So, yeah, Jenova and the others went to Sephiroth because they could all move and Jenova sensed the power of Northern Crater which is entirely in Jenova’s power as er power does indeed seem nearly limitless. Plus, her head was still in the Crater, if you want to get down to the nitty-gritty.

The final counter-argument with any possible chance is that Sephiroth diffused his will into Lifestream when he was taking his long bath on the way to his new big hole in the ground he called home. There is zero evidence of this if he did and more importantly, there is no indication Jenova’s body/corpse ever came in contact with either Lifestream or Mako while in Shinra HQ.

All throughout the game the Sephiroth persona emulated by Jenova seeks to become a ‘god’ yet the probability the Planet would survive is about 1% and this massive destruction is Jenova’s intent. Also, if the Planet did survive and Jenova stayed with Sephiroth at its core as the energy of the Planet flowed into them and basically made them the Planet, then it would serve Jenova’s purpose because now she would have en entire planet infected to its core and have a planetary ship with which to find new planets to infect thereby coinciding with her viral nature.

This is all I have to say on the subject and any reasonable counters to it are welcome. ##### like “OMG! But Seph is so much cooler111!!!” is not a reasonable counter for you Sephiroth fanboy blockheads.

--------------------------

QUOTES IN SUPPORT OF HER POWER
Ifalna:
"He first approached as a friend, deceived them,..."
"That's when it appeared! It looked like... our... our dead
mothers... and our dead brothers. Showing us spectres of their past."

Solidly proving Jenova's ability not only to seize upon memories of others but also alter its appearance.

Hojo:
"Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra Building."

As stated by his Reunion Theory, Jenova was moving to gather all its pieces and become one once more.

'Sephiroth':
"Cloud... Don't blame Tifa. The ability to change one's looks, voice,
and words, is the power of Jenova. Inside of you, Jenova has merged with Tifa'smemories, creating you. Out of Tifa's memory....."


I prove all these quotes as teastamonial to Jenova's power. I doubt there is any definite quote to prove Jenova to be the one truly in power, butI feel I've proved my point fairly.

[Zeromus_X]

It's a...game?

Well, I haven't really thought about it that much, so meh.

[Ballistix Man]

You know it is just a game.

[Forsaken Lover]

Thanks for adding a lot of insight and food-for-thought to the topic, guys. You've definitely come here with some fancy and powerful words and ideas to contribute. Do post more of your ingenius rhetoric.

[Zeromus_X]

Fine, fine.

Though it still is open to speculation (as are alot of things in this game, although maybe due to the english translation) I think that JENOVA being in control would be a better 'plot twist'. Still, it doesn't really matter now...Nice points, though.

Besides, it really isn't something to lose sleep over.

[Amaru]

First of all, starting off an argument or a debate with the term 'pandering to legions of Seph fanboys' is hardly going to win you over any aid or support. Second, there is a reason why respected sites such as Wikipedia, Gamefaqs, the Omega Guide, the FFVII game itself, and even Advent Children state that Sephiroth is the true villain of FFVII. You can cry and whine about it, and the fact that he is loved as a villain so much, but nothing changes that fact. The only grey area is exactly how he accomplished this during the game, and many people and sites believe differently. But the one fact remains, Sephiroth was the main villain of the game.

In the time of the Cetra, Jenova was a powerful alien entity. She came from another world looking to destroy the Planet, and she was eventually stopped by the Cetra. During this time, we know that she has certain abilities - like changing her shape and form. By the time FFVII actually started, Jenova was in a completely dormant state. Now, the Jenova Reunion is a concept where all of Jenova's cells will one day reunite and she will be reborn, however, locked in stasis (and without a head - which we'll get to in a moment), there was no expanding will from her form to begin this process.

A few years back in the Nibelheim incident, Cloud defeated Sephiroth, and he fell into the Lifestream along with Jenova's head. As explained in the Temple of the Ancients segment, Sephiroth spent that time 'traversing the lifestream and learning the powers of the ancients'. What power do the ancients, or Cetra as they are also known, possess? Well, we know that they can commune with the Planet, that it is their power contained within Materia, and more importantly, we know that they can leave behind their consciousness in a physical form as displayed by the Cetra forms left behind to guard the Temple. The only reason that they could no longer speak, as explained by Aeris, is because so many years have passed and they have forgotten how.

So, Sephiroth has the power to project himself and he has Jenova's head. As we know, Sephiroth's dying body eventually landed in the Northern Crater. Aside from learning about the ancient's power, he also learned about his 'Mother' Jenova and her true goal. She wanted to destroy the Planet. Advent Children even furthered this as Sephiroth explained that Jenova had wanted to ride the Planet's rotten carcass to other worlds in order to destroy. That was what the original Jenova Reunion was all about. However, we know that this was not what Sephiroth himself had planned.

Going back a little, we know that Jenova's cells all pull together from her will in order to reform herself, however, from all displays and explanations in the game, Sephiroth's will was far too powerful for this, and he ended up manipulating her. Instead of her reunion, Sephiroth was going to use the reunion of her cells, and more importantly, the calling of Meteor, to bring the Planet to near destruction. This very act would cause a massive surge in the Lifestream - right at the Northern Crater - which, if you remember, is exactly where Sephiroth is. He was going to use this chance to absorb his spirit into the Lifestream and 'become a God'. This was never Jenova's intention, or thought - she just wanted to destroy the Planet, and again fuels the reason why Sephiroth himself was in control.

Right. Going back to the Jenova changing her shape and form this is shown during the game. On three seperate occassions, Sephiroth flies away from the group and leaves behind a piece of Jenova for them to fight (which transforms it's shape into Life, Death and Rebirth).

Speaking of Jenova Rebirth, there is a very good reason for this last name of her. Many believe that she used the partial cells of those gathered in the Northern Crater to create a partial rebirth of herself. That was her final act and battle in the game, after which, her role is moved on to Advent Children (as since the battle took place deep in the Northern Crater) her cells got distributed amongst the Lifestream, causing the Geostigma during the film.

The final, undeniable argument, is that the final boss of the game is Sephiroth. The group fight him as a whole, and then, Cloud fights a final battle (whether you believe it was a mental or a physical one) with him.

So there you have it, pretty strong evidence to counter what you say. Either way, if so many people, and the producer and script writer of the game, say that Sephiroth is the main villain, then you'll just have to deal with it I'm afraid...

[Forsaken Lover]

First of all, I won't deal with what the makers of the game say because the whole FFVII franchise is whoremongering to fans of the game which number in the overrated millions. It's sad, really, that such a game has such a cult following it so does not deserve. And, if your bit about "Sephiroth was the final boss makes him the main villain" bit is right, then Necron was the main villain of FFIX. Shocking.

There are several key points to counter your argument that he can project his consciousness. For one, if he is controlling her, how come at certain scenes does it seem like he is completely unaware of things that Sephiroth should know? Such as who Cloud is, and as we aaw on the Cargo Ship, "Sephiroth" clearly did not recognize Cloud. If he's sending his mind out to domineer Jenova's body, why is he so ignorant of this?

To top that, there is no point to a Jenova Reunion if all Sephiroth wants is the Black Materia. All the people in black were following "the great Sephiroth..." because the Jenova Cells were controlling their minds. Why bother to revive the body of Jenova and not just send one of them to retrive his precious Ultimate Destructive Magic? Seems kinda stupid to me.

Then there's the final bit that Sephiroth's intent to "become a god" is utterly flawed. It makes more sense that it was Jenova's will because even the brainless heroes know Meteor will annihilate the Planet and thus, Sephiroth's godhood wouldn't really last long. To the contrary, Jenova's intent to infect the Planet and make the whole Planet her body to travel throughout the galaxy and corrupt other worlds is very indicative of her nature which is distinctly viral.

To conclude, the power to infiltrate another's mind is the power of Jenova and Jenova alone. There is nothing said Sephiroth possesses mind alteration powers. Projecting his consciousness does not really make it said that he can actually imprint it over an existing one. The Cetra were never said to have such a skill and there is no hint that Seph did either. It IS said that Jenova can do it and thus, her erecting a Sephiroth persona to gain his powers to achieve her own goals far surpasses the Sephiroth mastery of the mind theory. Jenova suddenly became active when a person with her cells was so close to her is no coincidence. I don't think Sephiroth was very aware of the fact Cloud had just strolled into Shinra HQ unless your giving him godmoding skills.

The logic of Sephiroth's will overriding his mother's is flawed because even in AC, Jenova is the one clearly in control. I don't like the movie because it is made just to pander to fanboys and rake in money, but there are several quotes in the film that lead more to a Jenova is more powerful than Sephiroth and is the master villain idea.

Now, this is not my own post. It's by a guy named Athrun who far outweighs even me in ability to explain Jenova and Sephiroth's relationship.

ATHRUN: Lol, here we go again. Might as well practice my typing skills.
Well first off, Wikipedia can be edited by anyone. And directors and writers often don't see eye to eye when it comes to some portions of the story. In Gundam Seed for example, the director claims that Kira "never really liked Fllay, or Lacus" which is obviously bs, and not at all what the writer portrayed to us.

The main problem with Sephiroth even being remotely close to outmatch his orginal, of whom he is a mear copy, is that nowhere in the game was any sort of power struggle between Jenova and Sephiroth portrayed to us. If that's actually a major part of the story, why was no power struggle shown then? And then why would Sephiroth do all this "to be with her" if he competes against her? That doesn't make sense at all.
You'd think that they'd explain his powers and that Jenova was alive and active if this was the case.
No, instead, we do know of Jenova's malicious intent straight from the game (Ifalna), and that she is a very real threat, who works from behind the scenes.
It all begins, and ends with Jenova. It all started when she came crashing down into the Northern Crater. The Cetra managed to defeat her with the final strength they had before almost being completely exctinct from her manipulation powers.
And many years later, her plan to take over the world is carried on by someone willing to do anything for her, while never having even met her. Again, the same thing happens in Advent Children, where three white haired Jenova clones long for nothing more than to be with their mother, just like Sephiroth did several years ago. Just a coinsidense? I doubt it.

*Advent Children spoilers*
As for there being no definite quote regarding Jenova's will and powers, I think there is. There are several in Advent Children. In fact, it's all about Jenova's will and her powers all the way through. Not Sephiroth.
Kadaj states that their powers are granted to them from Mother. And once the children drink from the water, they gain the same cat like eyes as Sephiroth, Kadaj, Looz and Yazoo, and Cloud has when the Jenova cells within him are active, and suddenly they are all acting like controlled puppets.
Kadaj also says that Jenova will chose between him and Sephiroth at the Reunion, and he wonders if she will pick him over Sephiroth. But he seems to believe that it will be Sephiroth, yet he isn't sure. He hopes for a different outcome.

But here's the main one I think you'll find interesting.
When Cloud confronts Kadaj (holding Jenova's head).

Cloud: "What will happen now?"
Kadaj: "Mother will tell you!"
Cloud: "So, the body of spirits doesn't know anything huh?"
Kadaj: "I'm just a puppet after all"
Kadaj: "But once.... so where you!"

After this scene, Kadaj fuses with Jenova's head and says that he will show us his "Reuinion".
In FF7 Hojo said that the Reunion is meant for Jenova to be complete again. So this is Jenova.
And the phyisical manifistation that appears before Cloud is... surprise surprise, none other than Sephiroth.
He speaks to Cloud of their plans and goals. But Kadaj said "Mother will tell you" And from that, we can only assume that this was done by her powers, because she allowed for Sephiroth to return. And it would also seem that while they are still two individuals, they seem to share the same body. Reunion is about making Jenova complete after all.*/spoilers*

In FF7 the game, when they were close to the Northern Crater and the "Sephiroth ghost vanished in front of them", Cloud said this.

QUOTE
Cloud: Jenova's cells... ...hmm. So that's what this is all about. The Jenova
Reunion...

Tifa: Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we've been
after?

Note that this whole time, they have been following only one person I can think of. The Sephiroth ghost. And according to Cloud and Tifa here, it would seem that it was not Sephiroth they were chasing after all, but Jenova.
After all, it is Jenova's ability to manipulate and control people, shapeshift, and whatnot. No where in the game was it explained how Sephiroth would somehow magically be able to do this as well.
And there is no reason to believe that Jenova would not manipulate Sephiroth, when we know that she definitely can.

In Nibelheim 5 years ago, Sephiroth started acting like a madman once he first got close to Jenova. He burnt down the village and pretty much acted exactly as Ifalna had described the Cetra race doing after being controlled by Jenova.
There's also another interesting thing that many people seem to overlook.
Sephiroth thought at first that he was a Cetra. But why was this implemented into the story?
Because the next time we see him, he already knows the truth. So why the deception? What was the point of Sephiroth thinking he was a Cetra, only that one time 5 years ago, when it seemingly didn't lead to anything in the story?
I think it's pretty obvious. Sephiroth needed to believe that Jenova was in the right to reclaim the planet. To believe that he was on a path of righteousness. Otherwise, winning him over wouldn't be that easy, concidering that Sephiroth was a "goodguy" and even a hero, up until that point.
But believing in Jenova's lies, and feeling this un natural longing to be with his mother and fullfill her plans, to take revange on the planet, just like the other three from Advent Children suddenly do, he went and got her from the reactor. And after this, he was no longer the same Sephiroth. That is exactly what Zack said when confronting him in the anime OVA, and Sephiroth had those cat like eyes. A testament to Jenova's controll over him.

Next, Cloud "killed him" and threw him and Jenova into the reactor.
But the next time you see "Sephiroth", he strangely doesn't remember who Cloud is.
To say that Sephiroth forgot all the missions him and Zack were sent out to in Before Crisis, and the person who "killed him" even after hearing his name, but remembering everything else, seems very farfetched to me. However, Jenova would not know Cloud or how he knows Sephiroth, because as much as she prows into his memories, all she would be able to find are his memories from after the incident. Reason being that Cloud surpressed his memories, and developed amnesia. This is why Jenova/Sephiroth seems convinced that Cloud is nothing but a puppet, created after the incident.

Also, the reason the Sephiroth "clones" (who aren't actually clones. Only people who went through the same procedure as those in SOLDIER, namely being exposed to Mako energy and Jenova cells, as Cloud explains on Disc 3) are being drawn to Sephiroth, is because they are being manipulated, just like Sephiroth was 5 years ago.
These people obviously have no affiliation with Jenova, but they all seem to look up to Sephiroth. He was famous after all. And most likely, all of these people are former SOLDIER, and that would explain why they care for him so much, and why every other SOLDIER is seemingly missing from the game.

This is why the person who broke Jenova free from the Shinra building had the appearance of Sephiroth. It got the word out that "Sephiroth had returned" and the cloaked men started to move towards the Northern Crater because of this. If they heard Jenova was back, I doubt they'd be as easy to manipulate. There were so many of them after all. So why not let them be drawn to Sephiroth instead? The end result is the same.
Jenova would get her "Reunion" and be able to take revenge on the planet for what it did to her.
Sephiroth's lower body was missing. And Jenova's body was missing it's head.
And then we see a boss like Bizzaro Sephiroth. It's probably the result of the Reunion. Sephiroth and Jenova "becoming one", as he said they would be.
But regarding the Shinra Building incident, it was obviously Jenova's doing, and not Sephiroth.
Is it just a coincidence that it happens now, after all these years, and just as Cloud comes into contact with Jenova? I highly doubt it. This happened right after Cloud got close to her, and as a result his head started hurting. After they were thrown into their cells, Cloud woke up with his prison door unlocked, and the blood trail starts from there. This makes me wonder if it was actually Cloud who did all of this. It's not impossible, concidering that Jenova could have him appears as Sephiroth if she wants to, *Advent Children spoilers* and also have a Masamune sword materialise out of nothing. (Shown in Advent Children) */spoilers*
The "Sephiroth ghost" who can shapeshift, fly and walk through walls once appeared as Tifa in the Nothern Crater to fool us into giving Cloud the black materia, and then vanished like a ghost. This makes it seem as if Jenova can make people see what is not really there. Most likely, it is usually a tattooed man in front of us. But instead of seeing him we see Sephiroth instead, or even Tifa. The same thing could have happened to Cloud in the Shinra building, for those around him who saw the Shinra President being stabbed to death.

And the fact that this "Sephiroth ghost" was so concerned about Aeris, the final remaining Cetra, enough to kill her before she could finish what she started, is also an indication of Jenova's will. The Cetra were the ones that eventually defeated her and put her in this state. She hates them, and is probably afraid of the same thing happening again, so she had Aeris killed.

There's a lot more to this, but basically I agree with your post. Sephiroth gaining all of these super powers, and Jenova being alive as we already know, and doing nothing when we know that she can, sounds far to vague and farfetched to me. *Advent Children spoilers* And Advent Children confirmed Jenova's will and her powers, and that she is the one pulling the strings, as many of us suspected she also did in FF7. */spoilers*

[Amaru]

First of all, I won't deal with what the makers of the game say because the whole FFVII franchise is whoremongering to fans of the game which number in the overrated millions. It's sad, really, that such a game has such a cult following it so does not deserve.

Oh of course. Let's completely forget about the actual makers of the game, just because it doesn't suit your own personal opinion. And your second statement makes it quite clear your reasoning behind this thread in the first place. You are just sick of the cult status that this game has, and the many fans of Sephiroth, so are trying to find a way to undermind the character. Now that is sad.

And, if your bit about "Sephiroth was the final boss makes him the main villain" bit is right, then Necron was the main villain of FFIX. Shocking.

That was only one furthering aspect of my entire argument. Read my entire post.

There are several key points to counter your argument that he can project his consciousness. For one, if he is controlling her, how come at certain scenes does it seem like he is completely unaware of things that Sephiroth should know? Such as who Cloud is, and as we aaw on the Cargo Ship, "Sephiroth" clearly did not recognize Cloud. If he's sending his mind out to domineer Jenova's body, why is he so ignorant of this?

Play the game. Sephiroth barely, and I mean barely new Cloud. After wandering in the Lifestream and absorbing the knowledge and wisdom of the ancients, when he finally started projecting himself back out into the World once more, he didn't instantly recognise Cloud. It was Zack who he had the major fight with, Cloud just came up behind and stabbed him.

To top that, there is no point to a Jenova Reunion if all Sephiroth wants is the Black Materia. All the people in black were following "the great Sephiroth..." because the Jenova Cells were controlling their minds. Why bother to revive the body of Jenova and not just send one of them to retrive his precious Ultimate Destructive Magic? Seems kinda stupid to me.

The Jenova Reunion is an instinctive process. It's a natural instinct for all the cells to be reunited. All the people in black were heading towards Sephiroth, not Jenova herself, because he was in control.

What? Sephiroth never revived the body of Jenova. That was her own doing. And that's exactly what he did. He manipulated Cloud into getting the Black Materia for him, and then to hand it over towards the end of the game, so I have no idea what you mean there.

Then there's the final bit that Sephiroth's intent to "become a god" is utterly flawed. It makes more sense that it was Jenova's will because even the brainless heroes know Meteor will annihilate the Planet and thus, Sephiroth's godhood wouldn't really last long. To the contrary, Jenova's intent to infect the Planet and make the whole Planet her body to travel throughout the galaxy and corrupt other worlds is very indicative of her nature which is distinctly viral.

Jenova's plan was never to use the Lifestream and become a God. Never. Not once in the entire game is there a quote or instance to prove this. She just wanted to destroy the Planet and use it as a vessel to head to over far-off Planets and destroy them. This was why she summoned Meteor all those years before. Sephiroth used her original idea and expanded upon it. Knowing the Lifestream energy that would surface in such a catastrophic event, he could merge with it and become a God.

And you say that his Godhood wouldn't last long, but you are forgetting that aspects of the story (like Jenova and the Cetra) expand beyond the Planet. Sephiroth's Godhood could have seen him God of the universe. He didn't give a damn about that Planet and what happened to it.

To conclude, the power to infiltrate another's mind is the power of Jenova and Jenova alone. There is nothing said Sephiroth possesses mind alteration powers. Projecting his consciousness does not really make it said that he can actually imprint it over an existing one. The Cetra were never said to have such a skill and there is no hint that Seph did either. It IS said that Jenova can do it and thus, her erecting a Sephiroth persona to gain his powers to achieve her own goals far surpasses the Sephiroth mastery of the mind theory. Jenova suddenly became active when a person with her cells was so close to her is no coincidence. I don't think Sephiroth was very aware of the fact Cloud had just strolled into Shinra HQ unless your giving him godmoding skills.

No one said that Sephiroth himself possessed mind-altering powers. He used [b]Jenova's influence[b], to use the cells within Cloud to manipulate him.

The logic of Sephiroth's will overriding his mother's is flawed because even in AC, Jenova is the one clearly in control. I don't like the movie because it is made just to pander to fanboys and rake in money, but there are several quotes in the film that lead more to a Jenova is more powerful than Sephiroth and is the master villain idea.

It really doesn't matter if you think it's flawed for Sephiroth to gain control of Jenova in both the game and the film, as that's what the game itself, the creators, and the majority of fans know as truth.

Sorry, but you just have to deal with that.

[Forsaken Lover]

I will argue what the makers and the fans say is "the truth" because it's a relatively simple fact that they go with what sells and what operates on fanbase. They'll appeal to the fans and lovers of the game. it's called pandering and it sells. Simple business concepts here.

Before the battle with Jenova DEATH in the Whirlwind Maze, "Sephiroth" says this is the end of this body's usefulness. Of course you can interpret that as "I will now become god-dude!" But, it ties in very much with the Jenova theory of her being the one in control because she wouldn't need his shapeshifted form anymore now that she had brought all her parts back together and her Reunion was complete.

The majoirty of FFVIi fans are clueless drones who shout "Sephiroth is zomg best villain ever!!!11" Even Sephiroth fans acknowledge that. Sephiroth learned power and wisdom of the Ancients but yeah dude, he doesn't have the skill to reach out of his cacoon and take over his mother's mind. Again, the timing was too oppertune. Sephirtoh just decides to do it then when Cloud is near Jenova? As soon as he looked at her, his head began to ache. Jenova was drawing on the strength of her cells in him to help revive herself. But, of course, this all magically ties in with Sephiroth's ingenius plan.

And, next time, don't resort to cheap taunts like "read my whole post." Because I read it all and disagree with it all. Especially the part where you claimed that I said Jenova wanted to become a god. I never said that. i said Sephiroth wanted to become a god and Jenova just wanted to assume the Planet as her body. Sephiroth's entire plan was just fitting in with the fake persona Jenova created herself.

The one thing you have to realize is, you draw your entire argument from ONE line in the game. Yet, all throughout the game, we hear repeated accounts of Jenova's powers. It goes on for quite some time on the second disc in particular. So, you base your argument on something overlooked and I base mine on facts clearly and consistantly stated throughout the game. You take one line and justify it as Sephiroth was the one in control, and that is simply born of your perception of that line. It's not stated and yet, we do hear many statements and testaments to Jenova's own abilities. Sorry, but I'll go with the facts and not just conjecture by you.

[Amaru]

You know what, I'm not going to bother with an indepth response to that. I told you to read my whole post because you attempted to form a weak argument that my entire debate hinged on the fact that Sephiroth was the final boss that you encounter, and you attempted to make a huge issue out of it. Now that's cheap.

I draw my argument? Excuse me but don't you mean, me, the game writers, producers, and legions of fans draw this argument? It seems to me that you are in a minority here. Not to mention, you state that it's all from one line, but the events and further dialogue of the game, film and other official resources say otherwise.

But hey, believe what you will. I'm just going to leave it at that...

[Forsaken Lover]

hERE.

I told you to read my whole post because you attempted to form a weak argument that my entire debate hinged on the fact that Sephiroth was the final boss that you encounter, and you attempted to make a huge issue out of it. Now that's cheap.

I made one line on it, dude. I did not disregard your entire thesis and claim I was right because you said the fact was Sephiroth the main villain. i just commented on it in one line of a much more than one-line post.

You don't have to debate with me, but the fact of the matters is your entire argument hinges onto your interpretation of one line in the game and speculation of later scenes in relation to that quote. My argument draws on factual quotes throughout the entire game and in AC to prove itself. I just feel mine is a bit more solid. I think you can understand that and any other logic-using being can as well.

[Amaru]

You don't have to debate with me, but the fact of the matters is your entire argument hinges onto your interpretation of one line in the game and speculation of later scenes in relation to that quote. My argument draws on factual quotes throughout the entire game and in AC to prove itself. I just feel mine is a bit more solid. I think you can understand that and any other logic-using being can as well.

I draw my argument? Excuse me but don't you mean, me, the game writers, producers, and legions of fans draw this argument? It seems to me that you are in a minority here. Not to mention, you state that it's all from one line, but the events and further dialogue of the game, film and other official resources say otherwise.

[Forsaken Lover]

You love democracy, don't you? The person who doesn't agree with what the large group of persons says is wrong. "I'm right because I say so and so does everyone else." That's really respectable.

[Amaru]

Well, I think it's even less respectable to try and go against everything that the original creators and writers of the game have said, say that they are wrong, and then turn around and say that you are right. But hey, that's just me. Again, I really don't want to get into a huge argument about this. You are obviously steadfast in your believes, even if they contradict everyone else.

[NeoCracker]

Heres my take. Jenova wants to destroy the planet, Sephiroth wants to become a god. While Sephiroth wouldn't want that originally, Jenova had manipulated him. However it is possible his will prevailed, however was still partailly under Jenova's influence, making them a Joint being with Sephiroth in more controll then Jenova. Since Jenova and Sephiroth would become one, Sephiroth becoming a God would indead make Jenova a God and destroy the planet in turn, being able to use the planets corpse and travel the Galaxy. That conclusion fits in with both the ambitions of Sephiroth and Jenova, but Sephiroth having more control would make him the head villian. Thats my take on the story, and No, I'm not a Seph fan boy, Im a Kuja and Kefka fanboy.