Observations of Ivalice, and the result of a world's destruction.

[Skyblade]

Well, I've finally gotten sick enough of not having this thread around that I have decided to recreate it. I have also added some to my theory since the last time I presented it. While the argument between me and tailz over this topic may be over, I think I have seen some new faces since the last time I posted this thread who may enjoy contemplating the unique view of the world of FFTA that I am about to present. You should keep in mind that this will likely be one of the most spoiler ridden threads in existance, so if you haven't beaten the game and don't like spoilers STAY AWAY!!! If you are ready, strap yourselves in, ladies and gentlemen, because it is going to be a long ride, but, hopefully, it will be worth it.

In FFTA, Mewt (accidently) creates a world the is designed around the innermost desires of his heart. We witness this world's creation, and view the transformation of people from the "real" world into people of Ivalice, and yet the scene cannot help but raise questions in the minds of the curious. Why is it that the only inhabitants of Ivalice who remember anything about the other world are Mewt and the four others he brought with him? What is so important about this people that they not only remain seemingly unchanged by the journey (they even kept their own names and appearances), but they also keep their memories of the past? These questions are the first ones I will address, but I will raise more as we proceed further into the twisted depths of a game that is far more serious than it seems...

Firstly, after much consideration, I have come to the conclusion that Ivalice is a seperate world from the original, and that it is just as "real" as it's counterpart. Furthermore, I believe that it's inhabitants are also seperate from those of our world. I think that the opening scene, where we see the people transformed into different people in Ivalice is misleading. Rather than having their shape and memories changed, I believe that the people of the "real" world served as personality templates for the people of Ivalice. Since St. Ivalice is only a small country town, it would of course be impossible for it to contain enough people to populate an entire country, so the idea that Ivalice is based purely on St. Ivalice is inherently flawed anyway. The world Ivalice exists in would have to at least be based off of the entire world of St. Ivalice. However, I believe that every person in St. Ivalice (with the exception of our unique five, who I will get to in a moment) has a counterpart in Ivalice, but that there are also far more people in Ivalice, and that these people are totally unique, not based off of people from the "real" world at all. Each person in Ivalice has memories of a lifetime in that world, and none of them have any memories of our own world. If the world was brought into existance when Mewt read the book, as the game indicates, then it is only logical that its inhabitants were brought into existance at that time as well. Why then, are Mewt, Doned, Marche, Ritz, and Cid different? Why did they get pulled into this world directly, instead of simply having characters in Ivalice based off of them? Mewt is easily explained. He created the world, so he went along with it. I believe the other four came over to represent portions of Mewt's personality. Doned is the Child: All he wants is to play and have fun. Ritz is the Protector: As in the real world, she has a sense of responsibility that leads her to protect the innocent. Cid is (obviously) the Judge: Apart and aloof, his decisions are made not by emotions, but rather by reason. And, finally, Marche is the Crusader: He fights for what he believes is right, even if that fight results in his own unhappiness. These four were the closest to Mewt, and the ones who most represented the main aspects of his personality, so they were the ones selected. The few changes that do occur to these characters are consistent with Mewt's desires and views: Mewt always saw Ritz as having red hair, so her hair stayed red when she came to Ivalice. Doned's case is a little more complex. Mewt, a considerate and optimistic child by nature, sees a sick person as a person on the road to recovery, not as someone handicapped for life. So Doned is recovering when he comes through to Ivalice. Remember, even at the time you first meet him, Doned is still too weak to take part in an engagement. He was not healed: he was merely put on the road to recovery. Mewt always viewed Cid as having broken down when Remedi died, so when he brought her back (as per his own desires) Cid returned to his old self. As for Marche, his change is the least apparent. Marche never notices the change himself, but Shara puts it quite nicely: "No one picks on him anymore. Not here." Marche was the first one to stand up to the bullies, and despite the fact that he didn't do much, Mewt saw that as a major aspect of Marche's personality: He doesn't back down or give up. Mewt does not want to leave, nor does he really want to stay. The conflicts between Marche, Doned, Ritz, and Cid mirror Mewt's own inner conflict. The power that Marche obtains is symbolic of the power that the sense of what is right gains in Mewt's mind. As Marche continues to fight and convinces the others, the battle in Mewt's own mind draws closer to a conclusion.

Before I go on, I will embark on a small tangent to discuss the three anomalies: Lyle, Colin, and Guiness. While obviously not brought directly like the main five, they still retain their names. My belief is that they, like the other inhabitants of Ivalice who were based off of people from the "real" world, were a combination of the actual person and the way that person was viewed in Mewt's mind. In the case of Lyle, Colin, and Guiness, he viewed them as monsters. The reason they kept their names, is because without their names, they would be meaningless. Mewt's fears were not based around three faceless zombies, but around the three bullies who tortured him. By keeping their names, they kept their significance to Mewt.

Yet the four main characters were not all that existed as an aspect of Mewt. The crystals, Llednar Twem, and Remedi were also an important part of the formula that held Ivalice together. The crystals were embodiments of desire. It was Mewt's desires were the illusion that kept his mind locked in Ivalice, which was why destroying them was necessary to free Mewt. Llednar was an anomaly. Mewt himself didn't seem to change when he entered Ivalice. Nevertheless, he had always hated his old self: Always being picked on, never standing up for himself. Llednar was the embodiment of all the bottled up hatred and violence from all the years of torment he suffered. Mewt created Llednar in order to demonstrate to himself that he was capable of defending himself. While he actually abhorred violence, he still felt attached to Llednar, as Llednar was everything that Mewt was not. As Cid put it "he is a distillation of an aspect of Mewt. The most violent, dangerous aspect.": The aspect which, in the "real" world, never surfaced. So Llednar, too, was a symbol of Mewt's desires. The final key to Ivalice was Remedi. Remedi was not only a recreation of Mewt's mother, one of his primary desires, but also the embodiment of Ivalice itself. Remedi, as seen in her last form, was the manifestation of the book that caused the change. All of these desires had to be eliminated as well in order to free Mewt from the illusion of his own dreams.

Now, I will discuss the result of Ivalice's destruction. Cid comments that Ivalice came into being because people wished it, and that "perhaps if the people here wish it enough, it will endure". I think he stated this because he suspected the truth: Leaving Ivalice would destroy it, and everyone who lived there. Not wanting to participate in genocide, he rationalizes that it might be possible for Ivalice to continue to exist without the five of them. However, as viewed in the initial ending, his hopes are in vain, as Ivalice and everyone in it does indeed fade. Since everyone was a unique person, not merely a changed person from the "real" world, these people all died when Ivalice faded. Marche, in his desire to do what was best for him and his friends, wound up causing the death of an entire world. He thought of Ivalice as a "dream world", and in a way, it was. But he didn't stop to think about the truth. Montblanc, Ezel, Babus, Nono, his clan... Did he truly believe that none of them were real?! Montblanc, a friend who saved his butt and helped him throughout his entire journey, and who has a family, isn't real?! If confronted with such a question, I believe Marche would indeed admit their reality. But he never did think of things that way, and when the time came to leave, did he consider what would happen to everyone in Ivalice?! No. He simply discounted them as dreams and murdered them all. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". True, staying in Ivalice would be unhealthy for the five, especially for Mewt, but does that justify mass murder?!

Finally, I will discuss the game beyond the main ending, and why it fits my theory perfectly. In the original ending, the five left the world, and the world disappeared. I believe that the world would remain as long as either Mewt, or the other four, lived within it. Since the other four represented Mewt's personality, Ivalice could draw what it needed to survive from them. Likewise, without the other four, if Mewt remained, so would Ivalice. Given a choice between who to return and who would stay, Mewt is the obvious answer. Since Ivalice is based around his desires, he is the one in the most danger from staying in it. So, when he leaves, the other four remain, and Ivalice continues to exist.

Well, there it is, my theory as to the true nature of Ivalice. If parts of it don't make sense (since it is 7:17 as I'm finishing up, and I only got two hours or so of sleep last night, it might not be as clear as possible), or you wish to argue with me about it, feel free to post in here and I'll get back to you.

People say this is a light, silly, kid's game, yet the main character is a mass murdering, genocidal maniac...

[MoonZapdos]

Wow, that's some HUGE post. o.O

[Craig]

Actually, I think that the 4 children were all sent to Ivalice with their wishes granted, because they were all reading the book together, and that's what the book does.

Cid was also sent to Ivalice because that is what Mewt wanted. He wanted his Dad to be important again, so Cid was sent to Ivalice too as the Judgemaster, but Cid lost his memorys of the real Ivalice because he wasn't there reading the book with them but rather sent there by someone elses wish.

The game quite clearly shows after it's completion, everyone back in the real Ivalice, and they have all grown from their experiences in dream Ivalice.

Why was everyone excluding Mewt still in dream Ivalice after it's completion? That pretty much makes no sense with the rest of the story as far as I'm concerned, but can be overlooked because it's reason for being there is to allow more gameplay after you beat the game.

[tailz]

Well, I've finally gotten sick enough of not having this thread around that I have decided to recreate it. I have also added some to my theory since the last time I presented it. While the argument between me and tailz over this topic may be over, I think I have seen some new faces since the last time I posted this thread who may enjoy contemplating the unique view of the world of FFTA that I am about to present. You should keep in mind that this will likely be one of the most spoiler ridden threads in existance, so if you haven't beaten the game and don't like spoilers STAY AWAY!!! If you are ready, strap yourselves in, ladies and gentlemen, because it is going to be a long ride, but, hopefully, it will be worth it.

In FFTA, Mewt (accidently) creates a world the is designed around the innermost desires of his heart. We witness this world's creation, and view the transformation of people from the "real" world into people of Ivalice, and yet the scene cannot help but raise questions in the minds of the curious. Why is it that the only inhabitants of Ivalice who remember anything about the other world are Mewt and the four others he brought with him? What is so important about this people that they not only remain seemingly unchanged by the journey (they even kept their own names and appearances), but they also keep their memories of the past? These questions are the first ones I will address, but I will raise more as we proceed further into the twisted depths of a game that is far more serious than it seems...

Firstly, after much consideration, I have come to the conclusion that Ivalice is a seperate world from the original, and that it is just as "real" as it's counterpart. Furthermore, I believe that it's inhabitants are also seperate from those of our world. I think that the opening scene, where we see the people transformed into different people in Ivalice is misleading. Rather than having their shape and memories changed, I believe that the people of the "real" world served as personality templates for the people of Ivalice. Since St. Ivalice is only a small country town, it would of course be impossible for it to contain enough people to populate an entire country, so the idea that Ivalice is based purely on St. Ivalice is inherently flawed anyway. The world Ivalice exists in would have to at least be based off of the entire world of St. Ivalice. However, I believe that every person in St. Ivalice (with the exception of our unique five, who I will get to in a moment) has a counterpart in Ivalice, but that there are also far more people in Ivalice, and that these people are totally unique, not based off of people from the "real" world at all. Each person in Ivalice has memories of a lifetime in that world, and none of them have any memories of our own world. If the world was brought into existance when Mewt read the book, as the game indicates, then it is only logical that its inhabitants were brought into existance at that time as well. Why then, are Mewt, Doned, Marche, Ritz, and Cid different? Why did they get pulled into this world directly, instead of simply having characters in Ivalice based off of them? Mewt is easily explained. He created the world, so he went along with it. I believe the other four came over to represent portions of Mewt's personality. Doned is the Child: All he wants is to play and have fun. Ritz is the Protector: As in the real world, she has a sense of responsibility that leads her to protect the innocent. Cid is (obviously) the Judge: Apart and aloof, his decisions are made not by emotions, but rather by reason. And, finally, Marche is the Crusader: He fights for what he believes is right, even if that fight results in his own unhappiness. These four were the closest to Mewt, and the ones who most represented the main aspects of his personality, so they were the ones selected. The few changes that do occur to these characters are consistent with Mewt's desires and views: Mewt always saw Ritz as having red hair, so her hair stayed red when she came to Ivalice. Doned's case is a little more complex. Mewt, a considerate and optimistic child by nature, sees a sick person as a person on the road to recovery, not as someone handicapped for life. So Doned is recovering when he comes through to Ivalice. Remember, even at the time you first meet him, Doned is still too weak to take part in an engagement. He was not healed: he was merely put on the road to recovery. Mewt always viewed Cid as having broken down when Remedi died, so when he brought her back (as per his own desires) Cid returned to his old self. As for Marche, his change is the least apparent. Marche never notices the change himself, but Shara puts it quite nicely: "No one picks on him anymore. Not here." Marche was the first one to stand up to the bullies, and despite the fact that he didn't do much, Mewt saw that as a major aspect of Marche's personality: He doesn't back down or give up. Mewt does not want to leave, nor does he really want to stay. The conflicts between Marche, Doned, Ritz, and Cid mirror Mewt's own inner conflict. The power that Marche obtains is symbolic of the power that the sense of what is right gains in Mewt's mind. As Marche continues to fight and convinces the others, the battle in Mewt's own mind draws closer to a conclusion.

Before I go on, I will embark on a small tangent to discuss the three anomalies: Lyle, Colin, and Guiness. While obviously not brought directly like the main five, they still retain their names. My belief is that they, like the other inhabitants of Ivalice who were based off of people from the "real" world, were a combination of the actual person and the way that person was viewed in Mewt's mind. In the case of Lyle, Colin, and Guiness, he viewed them as monsters. The reason they kept their names, is because without their names, they would be meaningless. Mewt's fears were not based around three faceless zombies, but around the three bullies who tortured him. By keeping their names, they kept their significance to Mewt.

Yet the four main characters were not all that existed as an aspect of Mewt. The crystals, Llednar Twem, and Remedi were also an important part of the formula that held Ivalice together. The crystals were embodiments of desire. It was Mewt's desires were the illusion that kept his mind locked in Ivalice, which was why destroying them was necessary to free Mewt. Llednar was an anomaly. Mewt himself didn't seem to change when he entered Ivalice. Nevertheless, he had always hated his old self: Always being picked on, never standing up for himself. Llednar was the embodiment of all the bottled up hatred and violence from all the years of torment he suffered. Mewt created Llednar in order to demonstrate to himself that he was capable of defending himself. While he actually abhorred violence, he still felt attached to Llednar, as Llednar was everything that Mewt was not. As Cid put it "he is a distillation of an aspect of Mewt. The most violent, dangerous aspect.": The aspect which, in the "real" world, never surfaced. So Llednar, too, was a symbol of Mewt's desires. The final key to Ivalice was Remedi. Remedi was not only a recreation of Mewt's mother, one of his primary desires, but also the embodiment of Ivalice itself. Remedi, as seen in her last form, was the manifestation of the book that caused the change. All of these desires had to be eliminated as well in order to free Mewt from the illusion of his own dreams.

Now, I will discuss the result of Ivalice's destruction. Cid comments that Ivalice came into being because people wished it, and that "perhaps if the people here wish it enough, it will endure". I think he stated this because he suspected the truth: Leaving Ivalice would destroy it, and everyone who lived there. Not wanting to participate in genocide, he rationalizes that it might be possible for Ivalice to continue to exist without the five of them. However, as viewed in the initial ending, his hopes are in vain, as Ivalice and everyone in it does indeed fade. Since everyone was a unique person, not merely a changed person from the "real" world, these people all died when Ivalice faded. Marche, in his desire to do what was best for him and his friends, wound up causing the death of an entire world. He thought of Ivalice as a "dream world", and in a way, it was. But he didn't stop to think about the truth. Montblanc, Ezel, Babus, Nono, his clan... Did he truly believe that none of them were real?! Montblanc, a friend who saved his butt and helped him throughout his entire journey, and who has a family, isn't real?! If confronted with such a question, I believe Marche would indeed admit their reality. But he never did think of things that way, and when the time came to leave, did he consider what would happen to everyone in Ivalice?! No. He simply discounted them as dreams and murdered them all. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". True, staying in Ivalice would be unhealthy for the five, especially for Mewt, but does that justify mass murder?!

Finally, I will discuss the game beyond the main ending, and why it fits my theory perfectly. In the original ending, the five left the world, and the world disappeared. I believe that the world would remain as long as either Mewt, or the other four, lived within it. Since the other four represented Mewt's personality, Ivalice could draw what it needed to survive from them. Likewise, without the other four, if Mewt remained, so would Ivalice. Given a choice between who to return and who would stay, Mewt is the obvious answer. Since Ivalice is based around his desires, he is the one in the most danger from staying in it. So, when he leaves, the other four remain, and Ivalice continues to exist.

Well, there it is, my theory as to the true nature of Ivalice. If parts of it don't make sense (since it is 7:17 as I'm finishing up, and I only got two hours or so of sleep last night, it might not be as clear as possible), or you wish to argue with me about it, feel free to post in here and I'll get back to you.

People say this is a light, silly, kid's game, yet the main character is a mass murdering, genocidal maniac...

well well well what do we have here.

you made me re-think this entire story yet again like last time but this time something came up to me i didnt noticed last time cus when you talk about shara montblanc nono en babus something bothers mee

i now decided all 5 have there own counterpart in ivalice

marche - montblanc
doned- nono
ritz - shara
mewt - llednar
cid - babus

how come i think this well it started with shara something in her reminds me of ritz shes onnest strong and the most important thing she is respected even with wite hair. that is one of the only if it isnt the only wishes ritz wanted for herself.

well the conclusion why doned is nono is because nono is montblancs litle brother and is as healthy as he could ever be (one thing doned wishes) also nono just like doned isnt old enough for clan wars and stuff although he knows enough about it.

then this brings us to marche what makes him wish hes like motblanc well there are a couple of things that (in my opinion) stand out.

trust
caring
and above al els a true friend

now the last one of them is what marche didnt have in st ivalice he starts of being very lonely.

now whe have cid why would babus be cids counterpart well.
babus has always in his live protected mewt something cid couldnt do in st ivalice so that he wishes to better himself on that part.

now this brings me to my conclusion everyone is ivalice is a counterpart of someone in st ivalice altough are five friends also journeyed to ivalice the rest didnt they just disapeared wich means that by returning to st ivalice the people woudl return again so even if marche killed everyone in ivalice he saved everyone in st ivalice

[Skyblade]

well well well what do we have here.

you made me re-think this entire story yet again like last time but this time something came up to me i didnt noticed last time cus when you talk about shara montblanc nono en babus something bothers mee

i now decided all 5 have there own counterpart in ivalice

marche - montblanc
doned- nono
ritz - shara
mewt - llednar
cid - babus

how come i think this well it started with shara something in her reminds me of ritz shes onnest strong and the most important thing she is respected even with wite hair. that is one of the only if it isnt the only wishes ritz wanted for herself.

well the conclusion why doned is nono is because nono is montblancs litle brother and is as healthy as he could ever be (one thing doned wishes) also nono just like doned isnt old enough for clan wars and stuff although he knows enough about it.

then this brings us to marche what makes him wish hes like motblanc well there are a couple of things that (in my opinion) stand out.

trust
caring
and above al els a true friend

now the last one of them is what marche didnt have in st ivalice he starts of being very lonely.

now whe have cid why would babus be cids counterpart well.
babus has always in his live protected mewt something cid couldnt do in st ivalice so that he wishes to better himself on that part.

now this brings me to my conclusion everyone is ivalice is a counterpart of someone in st ivalice altough are five friends also journeyed to ivalice the rest didnt they just disapeared wich means that by returning to st ivalice the people woudl return again so even if marche killed everyone in ivalice he saved everyone in st ivalice

I've considered this before. A couple problems though:

First, what about Ezel? He's just as important as the others, but has no counterpart in St. Ivalice. Kind of fishy, if you ask me.

Second, there is a big difference between Shara and Ritz. Shara is far more passive than Ritz. Ritz is a leader, and Shara is a follower. Shara also thinks things through more, as evidenced by her talks to Ritz. The two may be good friends, but they aren't counterparts.

Third, there is also a major difference between Nono and Doned. Nothing indicates that Nono is too young to engage, and Doned says himself that he isn't strong enough to yet. Doned wants to play games, while Nono settles down and starts up a serious business. There's a big difference there, buddy.

Fourth, as I stated, Llednar and Mewt are almost total opposites. Besides, Llednar's name really indicates that he is nothing more than a shade. "Mewt Randell" backwards... The game states quite clearly that Llednar is merely a figment of Mewt's imagination, a previously unexplored aspect of Mewt's personality that has now been unleashed.

[tailz]

well i did mention the wishes of the characters didnt i well doned might as well wishes to be as serieus as nono we dont know that and who says ritz likes being the leader all the time or maybe she isnt aware of it that shes a bossy type.


but here something you may solve what if your right what if marche kills everyone in st ivalice then what happens when mewt makes ivalice wouldnt the people of st ivalice die too this brings us to the point of maybe they are to paralel worlds and only our 5 friends travel through to ivalice well if thats true and everyone in st ivalice stays alive when marche en co travel to ivalice why wouldnt the people of ivalice surive it if the 5 return to st ivalice cous a paralel world cant be destroyed by missing a few people and i know you see the people from ivalice disapear in the ending but maybe sqaure want us to see that that world is out of our "hero" his reach is.

[Masamune·1600]

I still disagree with the assessment of Marche as a "mass-murdering, genocidal maniac." In fact, my views are the complete opposite; Marche is a savior, and allowing Ivalice to remain is in itself a form of "genocide."

Here are my comments from before:

First of all, Ivalice is based on St. Ivalice only in the loosest interpretation possible. Ivalice is the product of desire, and the character's desires are all centered around their own experiences. Since the backstory of St. Ivalice is crucial to defining their desires, traces of St. Ivalice are imbued into the framework of the dreamworld. Ivalice is separate from St. Ivalice; it is the physical manifestation of the characters' desires, especially those of Mewt. Desire is a product of experience, so Mewt's experiences, positive and negative, join with the concept of 'Final Fantasy' to form the true template for Ivalice.

I like the idea of Mewt's friends being pulled into Ivalice to signify the different aspects of his personality. However, script analysis would seem to suggest utter independence on the part of the characters. They may reflect Mewt's struggle, but only because they are an influential and independent dynamic.

What really bothers me is the suggestion that leaving Ivalice essentially constitutes genocide. I would propose instead the opposite: staying in Ivalice is genocide, or something similar to it. If all the events are symbolic of Mewt's (and the others) inner turmoil, then the idea of physical manifestation is irrelevant. Mewt could have been dreaming. However, Ivalice is more than a dream; it is a dream taken physical form. The instrument of this substantiation is the Gran Grimoire, an object that for the purpose of the story must be interpreted to have actual power to affect the real world. In that case, I will propose the following: Ivalice and reality cannot exist concurrently. By substantiating the dream, reality becomes the dream. Only as Ivalice unravels does reality begin to become clear again.

That, of course, is what makes the Gran Grimoire so dangerous. It holds the power to mold reality to one's desires, but in molding reality one loses it. The disappearance of Ivalice is irrelevant; it is Mewt's (and maybe the others') dreamings and desires. Hence, leaving Ivalice would be akin to me creating a character in my mind, then dismissing the notion. However, because the Gran Grimoire "threads" reality and fantasy, they cannot both exist. This paradox is best understood in this way: as part of reality, the characters are based in it. A dream doesn't matter; everyone dreams. But by physically projecting themselves into fantasy, reality is either stopped or discarded. Ivalice, nothing more than a dream, becomes reality. Therefore, the perpetuation of Ivalice implies the perpetual negation of our world. While Ivalice exists, we don't.

The Gran Grimoire, then, can ultimately be interpreted as a manifestation of temptation. Everyone has experiences they would prefer to discard. However, in giving into the temptation of the book, one negates oneself. By bringing making dreams real, one loses his or her real self. In giving into that ultimate temptation, one forsakes everything everyone has ever done for them. They discard the world.

Hence, it was necessary for Marche to overcome his doubts and concerns, since he was the only one who realized the deception that is Ivalice. Pain is sometimes necessary for growth, and in dismissing the reality of pain, the characters nearly locked themselves in the eternal stasis of perceived perfection.

St. Ivalice is necessarily involved with Mewt's desires, simply because his experiences occurred there. The context of St. Ivalice is thus applied to his desires, so it stands to reason that it would present itself in Ivalice. I noted that these are only trace elements; they do not define his desires, but they cannot be completely removed.

First off, the Battle Queen (Remedi) had to be the second to final fight, while Li-Grim/Remedi had to be the final boss. Remedi was Mewt's single greatest desire, so, thematically, the game had to conclude with this battle. However, Li-Grim, the embodiment of the desires of Ivalice, must still be overcome. With Mewt having finally accepted reality, the false reality of Ivalice makes one final attempt to perpetuate itself. This battle, then, is finally defeating the greatest temptation: that of the Grimoire. With this victory, reality can return.

[...]the crystals. If the crystals were not necessary world-threads, if Ivalice remained after all the crystals had been destroyed, what was their purpose? And if Ivalice remained, why did the destruction of crystals trigger Mewt's memories? I would propose that the crystals were the embodiment of the desires of the inhabitants of Ivalice. These inhabitants were derivative of Mewt's mind; therefore, each crystal shattered also shattered part of the illusion. The vast charade of Ivalice lost collective desire as each crystal was destroyed, and so Ivalice did unravel, but not completely. The crystals, in embodying Ivalice's desires, can also be interpreted as memories. Mewt's memories gave rise to the inhabitants; their desires were a function of Mewt's memories. In wanting to forget, to push the memories of reality away, Mewt defined the desire of Ivalice as a desire to exist. This existance would nullify reality, sealing away the unpleasant memories of suffering. So, each crystal's destruction forced memory back to Mewt.

The world of Ivalice seems a function of desire, formed around the concept of Final Fantasy. While I endorse the idea that the 'Final Fantasy' mentioned early on is in fact FFXII (because of the races, Judges, Ivalice, etc.), I also feel the concept of the entirety of the series was important in the formation of our dreamworld. Here's why. If one accepts the crystal theory stated above, then the crystals are inseparable from memory. FFIX, anyone? However, crystals are in many FF's. Beyond that, the crystals were defended by the Totema. Each Totema, according to a number of sources, is derived from a boss in a previous Final Fantasy. Exodus is FFV's Ex-Death, Ultima is FFT's Altima[...], Adrammalech is FFT's Adramelk (a mistranslation), Mateus is FFII's Emperor Palamecia/Paramekia[...], and Famfrit is FFIII's Dark Cloud[...]. In any case, with the guardians of the crystals drawn from other FF's, it almost seems as though the series itself seeks to perpetuate its new reality, again only as a function of Mewt's desire.

Of course, the Totema names will all probably be in FFXII (I've seen a few so far), which would complicate the above suggestion. Nonetheless, the above suggestion is possible at the very least

[Skyblade]

well i did mention the wishes of the characters didnt i well doned might as well wishes to be as serieus as nono we dont know that and who says ritz likes being the leader all the time or maybe she isnt aware of it that shes a bossy type.


but here something you may solve what if your right what if marche kills everyone in st ivalice then what happens when mewt makes ivalice wouldnt the people of st ivalice die too this brings us to the point of maybe they are to paralel worlds and only our 5 friends travel through to ivalice well if thats true and everyone in st ivalice stays alive when marche en co travel to ivalice why wouldnt the people of ivalice surive it if the 5 return to st ivalice cous a paralel world cant be destroyed by missing a few people and i know you see the people from ivalice disapear in the ending but maybe sqaure want us to see that that world is out of our "hero" his reach is.

A parallel world theory is actually pretty much what I am suggesting. However, if we accept the game's ideas that Ivalice is created by Mewt and is destroyed when he leaves, as we witness in the end, then we have little choice but to admit that he wiped out the world. I believe that the two worlds exist outside each other, and that Mewt, Marche, Doned, Ritz, and Cid travelled from one to the other. St. Ivalice continued to exist even after Ivalice was created, as did everyone living there. Unfortunately, the process doesn't work in reverse. Ivalice, crafted entirely around Mewt's desires, was eliminated without anything to sustain it.

Oh, and arguing that Doned's wish might be to be as serious as Nono is too farfetched for me to accept. Not only is there no in game evidence to support it, but the only wish we know he has is to use magic: which falls in line with his fun loving, gameplaying personality.

I actually disagree with the concept of Marche being a mass murdering, genocidal maniac as well, but it's more fun if I put it that way, so... Marche wasn't thinking about killing millions of innocents, that's just the way it turned out.

First of all, Ivalice is based on St. Ivalice only in the loosest interpretation possible. Ivalice is the product of desire, and the character's desires are all centered around their own experiences. Since the backstory of St. Ivalice is crucial to defining their desires, traces of St. Ivalice are imbued into the framework of the dreamworld. Ivalice is separate from St. Ivalice; it is the physical manifestation of the characters' desires, especially those of Mewt. Desire is a product of experience, so Mewt's experiences, positive and negative, join with the concept of 'Final Fantasy' to form the true template for Ivalice.

I like the idea of Mewt's friends being pulled into Ivalice to signify the different aspects of his personality. However, script analysis would seem to suggest utter independence on the part of the characters. They may reflect Mewt's struggle, but only because they are an influential and independent dynamic.

What really bothers me is the suggestion that leaving Ivalice essentially constitutes genocide. I would propose instead the opposite: staying in Ivalice is genocide, or something similar to it. If all the events are symbolic of Mewt's (and the others) inner turmoil, then the idea of physical manifestation is irrelevant. Mewt could have been dreaming. However, Ivalice is more than a dream; it is a dream taken physical form. The instrument of this substantiation is the Gran Grimoire, an object that for the purpose of the story must be interpreted to have actual power to affect the real world. In that case, I will propose the following: Ivalice and reality cannot exist concurrently. By substantiating the dream, reality becomes the dream. Only as Ivalice unravels does reality begin to become clear again.

That, of course, is what makes the Gran Grimoire so dangerous. It holds the power to mold reality to one's desires, but in molding reality one loses it. The disappearance of Ivalice is irrelevant; it is Mewt's (and maybe the others') dreamings and desires. Hence, leaving Ivalice would be akin to me creating a character in my mind, then dismissing the notion. However, because the Gran Grimoire "threads" reality and fantasy, they cannot both exist. This paradox is best understood in this way: as part of reality, the characters are based in it. A dream doesn't matter; everyone dreams. But by physically projecting themselves into fantasy, reality is either stopped or discarded. Ivalice, nothing more than a dream, becomes reality. Therefore, the perpetuation of Ivalice implies the perpetual negation of our world. While Ivalice exists, we don't.

The Gran Grimoire, then, can ultimately be interpreted as a manifestation of temptation. Everyone has experiences they would prefer to discard. However, in giving into the temptation of the book, one negates oneself. By bringing making dreams real, one loses his or her real self. In giving into that ultimate temptation, one forsakes everything everyone has ever done for them. They discard the world.

Hence, it was necessary for Marche to overcome his doubts and concerns, since he was the only one who realized the deception that is Ivalice. Pain is sometimes necessary for growth, and in dismissing the reality of pain, the characters nearly locked themselves in the eternal stasis of perceived perfection.

I like your first paragraph, but it doesn't really have any effect on my theory one way or another.

I agree with you on the second paragraph as well. Make no mistake, I was not suggesting that the unique four were not actually people or anything of the sort. They were still their own people with their own drives, ambitions, and desires. Ritz is the best character to describe this with. Had she been merely a figment of Mewt's imagination, she would not have known the truth about her hair, because Mewt didn't know it. Her hair changed because of Mewt's views and desires (I'm still pretty certain that all of Ivalice is built solely around Mewt's desires. I've explained why I think that, and it fits in with the game's evidence. Ritz, Doned, and Cid may have their wishes granted too, but only because their wishes were aligned with Mewt's wishes), as I explained. Were she not a real person, acting independently, she would never have noticed a change.

Can Ivalice and St. Ivalice exist concurrently? It's pretty impossible to prove one way or the other, but I believe that they can. Ivalice needs the desires and wishes of the special five to exist, but nothing suggests that St. Ivalice requires anything of the sort. I have no problem believing that it can continue to exist even while an alternate world plays out beside it. Whether you're "bothered" or not by the idea of genocide really doesn't matter much from a logical standpoint. Yes, the idea is disturbing (genocide at twelve? C'mon, he should have at least a few more years to practice... ), but that doesn't mean that it might not be correct.

Your dismissing the people of Ivalice as merely being dreams is flawed to the point of being ridiculous, I'm afraid. It is in fact the same mistake that I believe Marche made. The possibility that one person can dream up the entire thought processes of an entire world is insane. And, if all of their thoughts are not running in Mewt's head the entire time, then they are seperate sentient beings by definition.

Your next posts, concerning Remedi, Li-Grim, and the Crystals are obsolete, as you do not seem to notice that I more fully explained those points in my theory.

I do not believe that the Totema are functions of Mewt's desires, or they would have been eliminated with the destruction of their respective crystals, and Mewt would not have been able to leave while they still existed.

[Masamune·1600]

I like your first paragraph, but it doesn't really have any effect on my theory one way or another.

True. I was simply reposting comments from the previous thread.

I agree with you on the second paragraph as well. Make no mistake, I was not suggesting that the unique four were not actually people or anything of the sort. They were still their own people with their own drives, ambitions, and desires. Ritz is the best character to describe this with. Had she been merely a figment of Mewt's imagination, she would not have known the truth about her hair, because Mewt didn't know it. Her hair changed because of Mewt's views and desires (I'm still pretty certain that all of Ivalice is built solely around Mewt's desires. I've explained why I think that, and it fits in with the game's evidence. Ritz, Doned, and Cid may have their wishes granted too, but only because their wishes were aligned with Mewt's wishes), as I explained. Were she not a real person, acting independently, she would never have noticed a change.

I don't disagree significantly with any of this.

Can Ivalice and St. Ivalice exist concurrently? It's pretty impossible to prove one way or the other, but I believe that they can. Ivalice needs the desires and wishes of the special five to exist, but nothing suggests that St. Ivalice requires anything of the sort. I have no problem believing that it can continue to exist even while an alternate world plays out beside it. Whether you're "bothered" or not by the idea of genocide really doesn't matter much from a logical standpoint. Yes, the idea is disturbing (genocide at twelve? C'mon, he should have at least a few more years to practice... ), but that doesn't mean that it might not be correct.

My views on this are reflective on my views of the Gran Grimoire, which has its origins on the "earth" of St. Ivalice. The Gran Grimoire clearly manifests a new physical reality. However, I feel that, just as memory and desire are used to shape the manifestation, the physical substance of earth is necessary for the Grimoire to substantiate the other reality. You could argue that the Grimoire opens up something of another dimension, but it seems more likely to me that the world at large is reshaped for the purposes of Ivalice. This is why defeating Li-Grim leads Ivalice to fade and can return the characters. The "dream" is unraveled as Li-Grim can no longer substantiate it, and the true reality reasserts itself. The characters are right there.

Your dismissing the people of Ivalice as merely being dreams is flawed to the point of being ridiculous, I'm afraid. It is in fact the same mistake that I believe Marche made. The possibility that one person can dream up the entire thought processes of an entire world is insane. And, if all of their thoughts are not running in Mewt's head the entire time, then they are seperate sentient beings by definition.

Your next posts, concerning Remedi, Li-Grim, and the Crystals are obsolete, as you do not seem to notice that I more fully explained those points in my theory.

The first sentence, frankly, is uncalled for. That's especially true in light of the fact that nothing you said convinces me of the veracity of your argument. Consider the fact that while Mewt influences the specifics of the world, it is the Grimoire that manifests the world itself. Hence, the new reality fades when Li-Grim itself is defeated. Recall the similar plot device of FFX, where Dream Zanarkand and the Dreams of the Fayth are Summoned by Yu Yevon from within Sin, and manifested by the Fayth. Yu Yevon certainly would not have had any sort of special knowledge of Dream Zanarkand, as he simply embodied the Summoning, and the original Memory had long since faded from the Fayth as the dynamic Dream Zanarkand reconstrued itself with the passage of time. Similarly, I believe Ivalice, once manifested, has the ability to change. Remember that you yourself suggest that its residents are sentient. However, unlike FFX, where the dreams are vessels with unique souls, the sentience of FFTA characters (other than the "real ones") is dependent upon the Grimoire. In my views, every resident can be attributed to an infinitesimally small aspect of Mewt. As I said, his desire to push away reality defines the residents' desires to exist. It is the Grimoire, utilizing the substance it has usurped from reality, that accomplishes this in its entirety. It's even possible, I suppose, that by using the entirety of earth as a template for a new planet, the Grimoire was able to simply reuse much of earth, including that outside of St. Ivalice.

My ideas regarding Li-Grim and the crystals are merely different, not obsolete. Note that my views on Li-Grim lead to a completely different view of the story. My crystal theory also supports different ideas.

I do not believe that the Totema are functions of Mewt's desires, or they would have been eliminated with the destruction of their respective crystals, and Mewt would not have been able to leave while they still existed.

Destroying the crystals, as seen in the game, forces certain unpleasant memories back to Mewt. After the crystals are destroyed, however, the world does not fully unravel. The world, of course, includes the Totema. The crystals helped shape the illusion, but they were not the pillars of the manifestation. It's possible, of course, that in destroying part of the charade, a certain overcontrol exerted by Ivalice was lost, which allowed the Totema to join.

[Skyblade]

I like your first paragraph, but it doesn't really have any effect on my theory one way or another.

True. I was simply reposting comments from the previous thread.

I agree with you on the second paragraph as well. Make no mistake, I was not suggesting that the unique four were not actually people or anything of the sort. They were still their own people with their own drives, ambitions, and desires. Ritz is the best character to describe this with. Had she been merely a figment of Mewt's imagination, she would not have known the truth about her hair, because Mewt didn't know it. Her hair changed because of Mewt's views and desires (I'm still pretty certain that all of Ivalice is built solely around Mewt's desires. I've explained why I think that, and it fits in with the game's evidence. Ritz, Doned, and Cid may have their wishes granted too, but only because their wishes were aligned with Mewt's wishes), as I explained. Were she not a real person, acting independently, she would never have noticed a change.

I don't disagree significantly with any of this.

Can Ivalice and St. Ivalice exist concurrently? It's pretty impossible to prove one way or the other, but I believe that they can. Ivalice needs the desires and wishes of the special five to exist, but nothing suggests that St. Ivalice requires anything of the sort. I have no problem believing that it can continue to exist even while an alternate world plays out beside it. Whether you're "bothered" or not by the idea of genocide really doesn't matter much from a logical standpoint. Yes, the idea is disturbing (genocide at twelve? C'mon, he should have at least a few more years to practice... ), but that doesn't mean that it might not be correct.

My views on this are reflective on my views of the Gran Grimoire, which has its origins on the "earth" of St. Ivalice. The Gran Grimoire clearly manifests a new physical reality. However, I feel that, just as memory and desire are used to shape the manifestation, the physical substance of earth is necessary for the Grimoire to substantiate the other reality. You could argue that the Grimoire opens up something of another dimension, but it seems more likely to me that the world at large is reshaped for the purposes of Ivalice. This is why defeating Li-Grim leads Ivalice to fade and can return the characters. The "dream" is unraveled as Li-Grim can no longer substantiate it, and the true reality reasserts itself. The characters are right there.

Your dismissing the people of Ivalice as merely being dreams is flawed to the point of being ridiculous, I'm afraid. It is in fact the same mistake that I believe Marche made. The possibility that one person can dream up the entire thought processes of an entire world is insane. And, if all of their thoughts are not running in Mewt's head the entire time, then they are seperate sentient beings by definition.

Your next posts, concerning Remedi, Li-Grim, and the Crystals are obsolete, as you do not seem to notice that I more fully explained those points in my theory.

The first sentence, frankly, is uncalled for. That's especially true in light of the fact that nothing you said convinces me of the veracity of your argument. Consider the fact that while Mewt influences the specifics of the world, it is the Grimoire that manifests the world itself. Hence, the new reality fades when Li-Grim itself is defeated. Recall the similar plot device of FFX, where Dream Zanarkand and the Dreams of the Fayth are Summoned by Yu Yevon from within Sin, and manifested by the Fayth. Yu Yevon certainly would not have had any sort of special knowledge of Dream Zanarkand, as he simply embodied the Summoning, and the original Memory had long since faded from the Fayth as the dynamic Dream Zanarkand reconstrued itself with the passage of time. Similarly, I believe Ivalice, once manifested, has the ability to change. Remember that you yourself suggest that its residents are sentient. However, unlike FFX, where the dreams are vessels with unique souls, the sentience of FFTA characters (other than the "real ones") is dependent upon the Grimoire. In my views, every resident can be attributed to an infinitesimally small aspect of Mewt. As I said, his desire to push away reality defines the residents' desires to exist. It is the Grimoire, utilizing the substance it has usurped from reality, that accomplishes this in its entirety. It's even possible, I suppose, that by using the entirety of earth as a template for a new planet, the Grimoire was able to simply reuse much of earth, including that outside of St. Ivalice.

My ideas regarding Li-Grim and the crystals are merely different, not obsolete. Note that my views on Li-Grim lead to a completely different view of the story. My crystal theory also supports different ideas.

I do not believe that the Totema are functions of Mewt's desires, or they would have been eliminated with the destruction of their respective crystals, and Mewt would not have been able to leave while they still existed.

Destroying the crystals, as seen in the game, forces certain unpleasant memories back to Mewt. After the crystals are destroyed, however, the world does not fully unravel. The world, of course, includes the Totema. The crystals helped shape the illusion, but they were not the pillars of the manifestation. It's possible, of course, that in destroying part of the charade, a certain overcontrol exerted by Ivalice was lost, which allowed the Totema to join.

I'm not sure that it is uncalled for. I admit that I should have put it more tactfully, but the point stands. This is actually a secondary point, which, while critical to my theory, does not need my theory to back it up. The inhabitants of Ivalice are people. They are sentient beings capable of independent thought, and they disappear when Ivalice vanishes. Whether the "real" world is existing side by side with Ivalice is another question that we can argue later, but the fact is that destroying Ivalice destroys its inhabitants: we see that in the ending cinema. And please note that they do not change back to their "real world" personas in a puff of smoke the way they do when they first appear. They just vanish.

[Masamune·1600]

Of course they vanish; the force that substantiates them (the Grimoire) has been removed. However, their manifestation is still built upon Mewt's desires. While they may exist as sentient and independent beings within the contrived reality of Ivalice, their sentience is only the Grimoire's manifestation of Mewt's feelings (this also ties into my version of the Crystal Theory). In a sense, the inhabitants of Ivalice display what might be called artificial intelligence. They merely define concepts originally based in Mewt. The Grimoire provides substance, as well as a kind of overcontrol, again similar to the FFX example.

As to your point about '"real world" personas,' I'm in no way suggesting that every resident of Ivalice has a corresponding alterego on Earth. Rather, I suggest that it's possible that the physical substance of Earth was the source of the material the Grimoire used to manifest Ivalice. It's possible, I suppose, that personalities could have been recycled to help flesh out the individuals the Grimoire developed, but I won't go so far as to claim that, since I don't really agree with it myself. I hope this clarifies what I said in the previous post.

[Skyblade]

What I meant by the alteregos thing is that, when we see them appear along with Ivalice, we see people from St. Ivalice change into people from Ivalice. Yet when we see Ivalice fade, the people just vanish. If the physical substance of Ivalice was the physical substance of St. Ivalice, wouldn't the people need to switch back?

[Masamune·1600]

Well, you said yourself that the "transformation" scene can be misleading. Seriously, though, the two scenes seem to contradict each other when viewed in that light. I feel, though, that both were merely representations of the most significant consequences of the Grimoire's magic. The first scene (the residents of Ivalice changing) showed both that Earth was giving way to Ivalice, and that the perceptual basis of Ivalice was based in St. Ivalice to a degree (Mewt's experience). In the end, the residents of Ivalice fade as the magic is undone. Ivalice itself, a fully physical charade, is finished. We also see (possibly) the contrast between the worlds. The humans of Earth, bound to the world of reality, are shown in a way that is suggestive of the kind of "limbo" they may have effectively entered. The citizens of Ivalice were fabrications in the first place (though undeniably physical), and returned to what they were without the substantiation of the Grimoire.

I see what you're saying about "switching back," but (whatever view you take) it obviously happens whether the gamer sees it or not (in different senses, of course, depending on the theory). The significance of the scene is simply that Ivalice "fades."

[Skyblade]

Correct. Which means, really, that the two theories about what happened to the real world are nearly immpossible to prove or disprove, and that the entire arguement comes down to a question as to the sentience and individuality of the inhabitants of Ivalice, since Ivalice fades in both of our scenarios, and takes its inhabitants with it.

[Masamune·1600]

True. I'll be on vacation until August 13, and I'll have FFTA along, so hopefully I'll be able to refine some ideas when I return.