A simple, easy theory

[Ryushikaze]

And if you do not have a GF junctioned, you cannot draw, cast, or do anything other than attack. None of your party. Not the SeeDs, not Irvine, not Rinoa, not Seifer not Edea, not Laguna, Kiros, or Ward, can draw magic without the aid of a GF.

Those last three are former Galbadian soldiers. They lack the ability to draw-cast unaided. Since we see that later galbadians can cast magic, know that they do not have Gardian Forces, and that some of the highest trained mercenaries on the planet do not know how to draw magic without external aid, it does not follow that regular military worldwide know a method that has somehow eluded these highly trained mercs.

Addendum: Saw this in the 'logical' thread and wished to address it.

I mean, I remember talking about FFVII's formerly mysterious aftermath and I mentioned that there were still clones wondering about and people shot me down for that... So I just shut up. I opted to just discuss it, not prove anything... Guess who was right the whole time? Sorry, I had to gloat on that one....

Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz, are not clones. They are Shinentai. Will made form. Sephiroth's, specifically.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz, are not clones. They are Shinentai. Will made form. Sephiroth's, specifically.[/QUOTE]

AKA: Clones of a spefice Mentai.

[Omnislash07]

thats not the same thing as the origional clones. so you were actually wrong in saying there were still clones walking around. but that is off topic and doesnt belong in the FF8 section anyway. Besides why did you talk about that but comepletly ignore the evidence against your theory, which is what this thread is about?

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Why do I have to keep explaining this over and over and it's just like the JME? It's all boiled down to a matter of perspective now you're not going to understand because you don't see it or want to see it.


Odine's notes say that ANYONE can use Para-Magic. On that much we're agreed.

Now we're just speculating on the techniques involved of using Para-Magic.

And to do that, we're going to have think outside the box. The JME theory has no more 'evidence' in the game as my 'Cast' theory.

I based my ideas on my interpetation of Odine's Notes and what was happening during battles; even during the "Clash of The Gardens" what I interpeted was shown, and my friends and I are like WOW.

For me and a lot of other people that works. For other the JME theory. I don't care. Go with what you want. I could crack your theory just as much as you would mine. But their's no definitive description of the technique of Para-Magic.

Some friends of mine I told this 'theory' to years ago when FFVIII first came out like it and it made the more 'connected'. They've read the reactions to my posts and they all feel that the reason I'm getting grief is because I've taken you outside your box. Suddenly Jesus isn't the savior you thought he was.

Hey, there is a God, I just don't believe the same way everyone else does and that pisses them off... A LOT!


You believe in the JME all you want and I'm not gonna refute it. I CHOOSE not to. You don't. I CAN, but I WON'T. It's POINTLESS.

[Ryushikaze]

Why do I have to keep explaining this over and over and it's just like the JME? It's all boiled down to a matter of perspective now you're not going to understand because you don't see it or want to see it.

When I hear this word, a light goes off. That light says 'you cannot defend a theory by calling it perspective or opinion'

And to do that, we're going to have think outside the box. The JME theory has no more 'evidence' in the game as my 'Cast' theory.

JME is known to exist. Odine states that it is a toy, but it exists. As a machine capable of artificially junctioning the powers of a person to another, it must be an incredibly complex machine. Such machines, logically, have antecedents. GF emulation junction machines, of limited power but easy mass production, are a common sense antecedent for this machine.

Meanwhile, your 'cast' theory has issue because those few people we do know the specific junction status of- namely, the party itself- cannot actually draw and then cast without the aid of GFs.

The 'junction machine' theory, is a more parsimonious theory, since it involves a much simpler form of a technology known to exist, instead of invoking a heretofore unseen, unexplained methodology that has somehow escaped the knowledge of an organization specifically designed to combat natural magic users.

I based my ideas on my interpetation of Odine's Notes and what was happening during battles; even during the "Clash of The Gardens" what I interpeted was shown, and my friends and I are like WOW.

An appeal to a limited popularity. Of course, I'm curious how clash of the gardens actually shows what you claim it to, since no one is seen drawing, and GFs do not appear when magic is cast anyways.

For me and a lot of other people that works. For other the JME theory. I don't care. Go with what you want. I could crack your theory just as much as you would mine. But their's no definitive description of the technique of Para-Magic.

Again, appeal to popularity. Now, as I've said before many times elsewhere, if you find a flaw in the Junction Machine theory, please, if you would, explain what that flaw is, and show specific examples against it.

Some friends of mine I told this 'theory' to years ago when FFVIII first came out like it and it made the more 'connected'. They've read the reactions to my posts and they all feel that the reason I'm getting grief is because I've taken you outside your box. Suddenly Jesus isn't the savior you thought he was.

Red Herring, appeal to popularity, appeal to motives, etc. The reason you are getting grief is not because you've 'taken us outside our box', it's because you're trying to pretend your non-parsimonious postulate has as much validity as a postulate based on existing technology.

Hey, there is a God, I just don't believe the same way everyone else does and that pisses them off... A LOT!

All gods suffer the burden of proof. None of them fill it.

You believe in the JME all you want and I'm not gonna refute it. I CHOOSE not to. You don't. I CAN, but I WON'T. It's POINTLESS.

"Yeah, I could totally hack your computer, but I'm NOT!"
If I had a dollar for every time someone said they could totally destroy my theory, but wasn't going to, or otherwise tried to dismiss my theory without addressing it, I would be a very very rich man.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

I had written an exstinsive response to your post but it was lost in translation during the site update... So I just decided...

It's whatever [leeza]*snip*[/leeza]. Whatever.:rolleyes2

[leeza]This is a warning. Do not use derogartory words on this forum. ~ Leeza[/leeza]

[Ryushikaze]

What's that? Someone just made an excuse for their lack of a rebuttal instead of having one? What a shock.

[Iceglow]

Balamb is the only garden to use GFs? Maybe not...

Selphie in the orphanage explains that her memory loss is due to the fact that when she was studying in Trabia Garden to become a SeeD she found a GF on a field excercise one day and equipped it however she could not remember the name of the GF or what it did.

SeeDs can only graduate from Balamb Garden as far as I remember this was stated in the game not in a guide somewhere but right at the begining of Disc 1 when you look closely you see I'm right and if I am wrong it is because Gabaldia also offer the exam to candidates. Many Gabaldian Soldiers are former SeeD candidates who either had to leave due to mis-behaviour or SeeDs who at the age of 21 were made to leave the force. A SeeD must Graduate before the age of 17 (I think) and serves as a SeeD only until they turn 21 at which point unless they are an instructor they are retired. 21 and retired and most of your knowledge is combat stuff? Where do you go? Esthar is hidden away and had been untill Squall found it again for 17 years. Timber is annexed by Gabaldia and yet full of liberation fighters, say 10% go there and join the fight. Dollet is a Dukedom, probably a bit starchy towards the former SeeD candidates/members who wish to join them but with Gabaldia on their backs every now and again I don't see them turning away the help, another 25% there shall we say? Now lets say 5 - 10% go to FH and become Technicians or become mercanaries of their own merits. That leaves an impressive 55 - 60% of candidates or former SeeDs without work, where better to go than the Gabaldian army where you can be paid regulary and have plenty of work. Now I am getting off topic here but in the game it does state that there are suspicions of Martine (Gabaldia Garden Headmaster) having underhand deals with the Gabaldian Authorities as to what happens to the failed or too old Candidates for SeeD.

So with most of the worlds military force being provided by the three Gardens it's easy to understand that they might have some experience in Magic. (I Excuse Esthar because after 17 years of isolation any one who was from a Garden would have been retired from active duty and they have Doc Odine hence JMs) Also with Selphie stating she found a GF that she Junctioned for several years yet has no memories of what it was called ect. is it not possible that GFs are actually much more common than most people suspect? Just because we gather a select few doesn't mean that there aren't others out there how else would SeeD which is a massive military force allow it's members to use GFs let alone assign candidates them. Xu during the Dollet Mission offers both Squads A and B a reminder to equip their GF's Meaning that both squads carried them.

Also Junction Machines (JMs) are a possibility, they're certainly what the Estharians are using to use magic and definitely due to the huge size of the Gabaldian Army them too. GFs aren't used by other armies in the world apart from SeeD as they have negative side effects such as the memory loss. As for the Junction Machine and how it functions I believe it to be a simple matter of the Spells being Programmed in to it, not drawn or created programmed since they are a computer essentially why not? They simply then copy and release the spell desired by the soldier probably by voice activation or a button push (certainly the pose struck when casting leads me to believe in voice activation also it would certainly stop the enemy from picking it off the dead and using it against you too if registered for that soldiers voice. In the Dream sequences Laguna, Kiros and Ward all use your GFs (especially if you bother to junction them) which leads me to think that maybe they could have been using the machines or had experience in using the GFs before.

When a person dies the GF junctioned to them wouldn't die it would simply be left to roam where the last bearer died or return to a speciffic point.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Where are the JMEs? How do they tote something like that around? And Odine hasn't invented it yet, if ever. Ellone simply has a natural talent.

I just don't see it. How does this work?

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

I wrote a 'rebuttal' you jerk. It got deleted during the maintenance hour of the site. It was too long to write over again, so that's that...

[Qurange]

I don't see why Odine couldn't have invented Junction Machines aside from the JME--if anything, the name 'Junction Machine Ellone' implies that it's a specific /type/ of Junction Machine. As to how they carry them, there's nothing that says that they couldn't be backpack-sized or smaller. Look at both groups we see using them--isn't there space on that armor for something to be placed? To me, this makes more sense, given the way that magic is used in FF8. It wouldn't make any tactical sense to have to draw to cast every time, because the ambient energies used to power the spells aren't the same everywhere. It's a better idea to draw them into the machine and then draw them out, and given that Junctioning technology has clearly been around long enough to gain accepted use (and even variation, such as the Anti-magic fields), I see no reason for it to be impossible. If anything, I think Draw/Casting is probably a more advanced ability than Stocking and then Casting, because it's all done at once. As far as I can tell, all magic except for Sorceress magic requires an aid of some sort; people can't naturally use it, except in very specific ways, such as Blue Magic, which likely took years of training for Quistis to develop.

I think that the closest magic comes in FF8 to your theory, Pharoh, is Selphie's limit break, which may well be just drawing in the ambient energy around her and randomly shaping it. Even then, Selphie has naturally high magical potential. So.

Also, Pharoh, the theory was mine, not Ryushikaze's, so please don't be too hard on him.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

The thing is I don't remember seeing this Junction Technology or the JME... And you gotta admit it was mentioned with fabrication... Like it was a red herring or not even solid. I'm not saying that it can't happen, I just didn't see anything the resembled JMT (Junction Machine Tech).

[Omnislash07]

Ok Pharoh you say that anyone in the FF 8 world can draw/cast without a GF but the main characters of the game are unable to do so without the aid of a GF so that must mean your theory is wrong.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Apparently it is possible to cast without a GF because the Galbadian and monsters can do so as well. We just have different views on how this is done. I see the natural ability to do as in previous Final Fantasies. Also Odine's Notes' state that by junctioning with a GF, a person can use further, tremendous amounts of energy. Meaning that manipulation of energy is possible without a GF, but with a GF... oooh, you're Samuel L. Jackson. Hmm... Samuel L. Jackson as a SeeD... I smell fan-fic... You Damn, right.

And using magic only with a GF is only looking at this from the control pad end of things. I'm looking at as if I were "Captain N", so to speak. I mean if we're going to look at from semantics like that then why is it that Seifer, who never was a SeeD is able to use Para-Magics in the opening sequence and even after he left Balamb Garden?

I believe people can use Para-magic, they merely have to have training. I believe that people use the lowest level of Para-Magics (like Fire, Water, or Ice) for conventional purposes as people used marketed Materia in everyday tasks of life, provided they have required energies in ample quantities. SeeDs and Soldiers are trained to use higher levels; or as high as possible to achieve without using a GF. Kinda like you were a boy scout but you're in the army now...

I believe that you're getting the JME theory from Materia being placed in Materia Slots in weapons; FFVII was your first, one, right? That's great, it's a great theory but I'm just not inclined to agree with it totally. Maybe it's both ways...

I also believe that a fair amount of the Para-Magic "spells" are merely offensive/ defensive telepathic illusions while others are physical manipulations of energy.

I really wish you would understand that no one can be 'right' or 'wrong' because my 'cast' 'theory' holds just as much water as any other. The glass is not full; heck it ain't even half empty either. It can't be officially 'proven' or offically intergrated as part of the game. We're basically doing a 'fan-fic' with this discussion. We may as well be asking how can the main characters survive gun shot wounds but killed by a Bite Bug? See what I mean?

So I'm not 'wrong' because you could be 'wrong' as well. Let's move on from this "Believe what I tell you or I'll hurt" mentallity.

[Ryushikaze]

Apparently it is possible to cast without a GF because the Galbadian and monsters can do so as well.

Red herring. Twice. What monsters can do is irrelevant to what humans can do.
And we are not arguing that is is impossible to cast without a GF. We are arguing that for normal humans, paramagic is not possible WITHOUT ASSISTANCE.

We just have different views on how this is done. I see the natural ability to do as in previous Final Fantasies.

You mean like in FF6, where they needed the assistance of Espers to learn magic, or in FF7, where Materia was the conduit for magic?

Also Odine's Notes' state that by junctioning with a GF, a person can use further, tremendous amounts of energy. Meaning that manipulation of energy is possible without a GF, but with a GF... oooh, you're Samuel L. Jackson. Hmm... Samuel L. Jackson as a SeeD... I smell fan-fic... You Damn, right.

I find you very interesting. At one point, you denounce the words of Odine, the man who said JME exists, but now you are twisting his words to support your ideas.
Besides, did it not occur to you that he meant the GFs power itself, the stat junctioning, or other GF related abilities?

And using magic only with a GF is only looking at this from the control pad end of things. I'm looking at as if I were "Captain N", so to speak. I mean if we're going to look at from semantics like that then why is it that Seifer, who never was a SeeD is able to use Para-Magics in the opening sequence and even after he left Balamb Garden?

Squall had a GF before he was a SeeD. Seifer could have had one junctioned as well, and since Squall says Seifer cheated, it's likely he had one equipped and used it to cast the fire spell in the op.

I believe people can use Para-magic, they merely have to have training. I believe that people use the lowest level of Para-Magics (like Fire, Water, or Ice) for conventional purposes as people used marketed Materia in everyday tasks of life, provided they have required energies in ample quantities. SeeDs and Soldiers are trained to use higher levels; or as high as possible to achieve without using a GF. Kinda like you were a boy scout but you're in the army now...

If they were trained as such, one would expect the SeeDs we have to be able to use Para Magic despite junction status. They cannot.

I believe that you're getting the JME theory from Materia being placed in Materia Slots in weapons; FFVII was your first, one, right? That's great, it's a great theory but I'm just not inclined to agree with it totally. Maybe it's both ways...

Maybe we're getting the idea of a Junction machine from the available evidence that such machines exist, and that the party cannot use any paramagic sans GF.

I also believe that a fair amount of the Para-Magic "spells" are merely offensive/ defensive telepathic illusions while others are physical manipulations of energy.

Parsimony, it is violated.

I really wish you would understand that no one can be 'right' or 'wrong' because my 'cast' 'theory' holds just as much water as any other. The glass is not full; heck it ain't even half empty either. It can't be officially 'proven' or offically intergrated as part of the game. We're basically doing a 'fan-fic' with this discussion. We may as well be asking how can the main characters survive gun shot wounds but killed by a Bite Bug? See what I mean?

If our theory fits better with established facts with fewer additional terms, it is by default better.

So I'm not 'wrong' because you could be 'wrong' as well. Let's move on from this "Believe what I tell you or I'll hurt" mentallity.

You are wrong because you disagree with the game, not to mention your violations of parsimony.