Attention: The Holocaust didn't happen

[yingyang]

'Nuclear Power for peace"

LOL

You know.. this guy kinda sounds like Mr. Bush.....

[War Angel]

It has only happened once under the leadership of some of the craziest people to lead in the 20th century (im not writing it off, Im just pointing out that your statement seems to say that it happens alot of times.), it doesnt happen everywhere.

It happened all over Europe before the Holocaust, though in much smaller numbers. The thing is, country-less people get abused. It's like someone without a family, a home and friends. Nobody can touch Jews now - they are backed by Israel, and no-body wants Mossad agents on their case. No KKK activist can do anything to Jews, and they know it. If they did, you'd start hearing about KKK people 'disappearing' all over the place. Israel would of-course deny anything to do with it.

This also brings me back to my original statement of would these things happened if Isreal hadn't been formed.

The Holocaust would un-doubtedly happen again. Somewhere else maybe, under different circumstances perhaps, but it would. Country-less people tend to be abused, and someone as annoying as the Jews don't stand a chance without a powerful nation backing them up.

But why did Isreal declare its independence?

Because the time was right. It was legitimate (i.e, the 29.11.1947 thing), and the tides of events showed that any later would not be good. Why at all... I've already stated that without a country, a people have no hope, let alone a beaten people like the Jews.

Not quite, i believe that the whole world could be accepting of jews. A country could help, but its not the only solution.

You could be right, and I could be paranoid. But after over 6 million dead, I'm not taking any chances.

Also, I'm glad your attitude is right about this. I knew I should'nt have given up this debate with you.

[Cuchulainn]

It happened all over Europe before the Holocaust, though in much smaller numbers. The thing is, country-less people get abused. It's like someone without a family, a home and friends. Nobody can touch Jews now - they are backed by Israel, and no-body wants Mossad agents on their case. No KKK activist can do anything to Jews, and they know it. If they did, you'd start hearing about KKK people 'disappearing' all over the place. Israel would of-course deny anything to do with it.

Like they do now when innocent Palestinians get killed? I'm not a great fan of Palestine, don't get me wrong, if anything, I'd side with Israel, but to deny innocents get deliberately killed is mad. They do. May not be be a top sanction, but it happens, a lot. The Bedoin Ababs working for Israel are trigger happy, then you have the gunships. Taking out a terrorist by blowing up the whole street. There has already been a discussion on this & we are digressing from the topic but the halo-complex of the Jews is slightly annoying in this instance.

[Sasquatch]

FutureEmperor: I do admire and respect your ideals of "can't we all just get along". I just wish it wasn't so...naive.

would you care to elaborate, as i thought that alternative fuels and greater rights and freedoms was progressive?

Change just about everything, and something is bound to change for the better. Their quest for alternative fuels while completely disregarding nuclear energy is just a stupid move altogether, while their fights for special rights give the equal rights movement for homosexuals and everybody else a bad name. And that's even without their refusal to allow military recruiters in public schools.

Thats sad millions slaughtered because of cowardice. its called initiative.

Not really cowardice, more indifference. It is sad, though. But most countries thought "they're not a threat to me, it's not my place to step in". Until Nazi Germany invaded another country, it was a problem only Nazi Germany had. The United States was under this same mentality -- we wanted to help, but didn't have enough support until Pearl Harbor. A lot of people believe Pearl Harbor was prettymuch planned out by our government, but Japan had a larger attack than they were counting on.

Acctually that site just helped my argument more, why coulnt they have keeped the whole country palestine, instead of splitting it up, it was mentioned that both Muslims and Jews were living together. And most of the culturally significant areas are in Isreal...

Are you sure? I don't know how that helps your argument. It's already been said how much there needed to be a Jewish country. The mandates gave about 25% of the original "Palestine" to form Israel, which was then simply a Jewish Palestinian nation, as opposed to the other, larger, Arab Palestinian nation. When Israel was finally created, Gaza and the West Bank (where most conflict is now) were under control of Jordan (formerly Palestine, or Arab Palestine) and Egypt. That was until Israel kicked ass in the Six-Day War (1967), a defensive war against Jordan, Syria, and Egypt, where three countries tried to completely eliminate Israel, and Israel not only defended itself, but took control of more land. The land they took control over was the same land used by those three countries to launch their invasions -- Gaza, West Bank, and Golan Heights. It was only by the graciousness of Israel that they allowed (and still do) Arabs to stay in those territories -- the same territories they not only used thirty years ago to launch their invasions, but use today to launch their terrorist attacks.

I never said they target innocent civilians, but that Innocent civilians become casualties in these times of hate, the muslims dont hate the jews they hate how they cant visit thier own holy sites.

That's a good one. They can visit their own holy sites (as War Angel described), quite unlike the period between 1948 - 1967 when Jews couldn't visit Jerusalem.

You say that we put them back in thier homeland, but if thier homeland was occupied by someone else, and that putting the jews back into thier homeland caused a rift between that someone else and the jews, then wouldnt it be our fault. as it would of never of happened with out us?

You're misunderstanding again. Nobody was forced off their land when Israel was put back in its rightful place. In fact, they were allowed to stay on the land Israel took in the Six-Day War, even though they had used (and still do) that land to launch their attack from.

Maybe someplace where they dont have to fear death? thats always a good place to live.

Try telling a black person in 1920s America, "You should just move away, that'd be a better idea. it's your fault for being here."

im pretty sure most Isreali's dont visit thier holy sites all the time, and that they usually make a once a year trip to these areas, so my question is why is it important that the Isrealis get the land in which thier holy sites are situated, but the Muslims cant get the lands on which thier holy sites are located. it seems pretty unfair to me.

Well, first of all, because Israel can. Secondly, because Israel has the rights to that land. Third, Muslims can get to their holy sites (as I said, unlike Jews when Muslims had control over them).

It wasnt an accusation, it was a warning to becareful of what you say. also as i recall no muslim country has used a WMD

You can't be serious. Ever heard of Iraq? Kurds? Saddam Hussein? Gulf War Syndrome?

infact the only MOABS used were used by the United States

MOABs are conventional weapons. It's not a WMD, it's just a bigass bomb. There is no nuclear, biological, or chemical threat in a MOAB. And the United States (and nobody else) uses them because the United States developed them.

and the only nuclear weapons used in anger were used by the United States

Two bombs, sixty years ago. And it could be very easily argued that those two saved millions more lives, both military and civilian, and billions upon billions of dollars worth of destruction.

oh and timothy mcvay was a terrorist

Yes. And? If you're trying to name non-Muslim terrorists, you're at one. Two if you count the IRA.

and the United states funded Osama bin ladin so that he would fight against the USSR.

Because the USSR was our enemy. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"? The USSR funded our enemies, too. So what?

The germans killed thousands of jews in WW2

If you remember correctly, most people don't look highly upon Nazi Germany.

and smoking kills millions yet its sanctioned all over the world

I know you're not trying to compare terrorism to tobacco.

Also remember Abu Ghraib prison that looked like torture for entertainment to me.

Abu Gharab was nowhere near "torture". It was a few irresponsible MPs mistreating prisoners. There's a difference between torture and abuse or mistreatment.

The US destroyed Iraq recently

Destroyed? Buddy, Iraq had been destroyed for a while, it's still standing just find now.

and droped Millions of tons of munitions on a tiny little vietnam.

...yeah? We bombed an enemy. How is that bad?

North Korea hasnt invaded a country since the Korean war, and there isnt really any sources of active genocide in north korea.

North Korea is also a developing nulear power, and hostile to most of the world. While I highly doubt Kim Jong Il is stupid enough to try anything, he's still a threat.

One non-muslim country that could be a threat to the whole world, how about... THE US, its invaded many countries on the emphasis of freedom, all these "radical countries" that we talk about end up doing nothing in the end, Only the US does anything, and it does alot.

Show me a conflict where the U.S. has gone in alone.

And how have these "Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Yemen" countries threatened the world, they have a hard enough time keeping up with the world.

How about the constant terrorism they promote and sponsor? If not sponsoring, they surely don't do anything to prevent it.

What are you talking about it already happened a Sovereign country was invaded and its leader imprisoned (although he did deserve it) with no credible reason and with no reprecusions.

If he deserved it, there's a credible reason, isn't there? More than two hundred countries contributed to the liberation of Iraq.

I bet you wouldnt say that if your son was nuked just so some political leader could leave his mark.

......I will be extremely polite and respectful here, and ask you to kindly keep your mouth shut around issues you are completely ignorant of.

I agree that the first nuclear attack would be more devastating, but a nuclear retaliation would kill thousands of innocents (the first nuclear attack being only against combat forces), This would be a warcrime at best.

Using a nuclear weapon would be a warcrime. And even if that were to be the case, I doubt there would be a nuclear retaliation.

I fail to see how thier resolve would strengthen after learning that many of thier comrades are being indiscriminately killed with no way to defend themselves, only some of the people on the home front would have a greater fighting spirit.

Then you know little of military morale.

The victim country? oh you mean the country that was invading a smaller less easily defended nation that had no other choice.

If you didn't know, sometimes the smaller, weaker nation is the one in the wrong. Iraq is a perfect example of that. But even if Kuwait had used nuclear weapons on Iraq in the early 90s, there would have been serious repercussions.

And the rest of the "Civilized world" would be angry at the nation that used the Nuclear weapon, but what could it do? invade? but that was disasterous. bomb into submission? thats never worked.... what do you do?

Why would invading be disasterous? It's the same concept as Saddam. You do know he's on trial for using WMDs against the Kurds, right? (As well as other things.)

I dont see why, unless logical means the place that pisses alot of people of and ends up in the deaths of hundreds.

No, logical means historically accurate and religiously accurate. Why are you blaming Israel for the Muslims not wanting them there?

So why give them that excuse, it just added more fuel to the fire. from the way things were going it seemed that the area was calming down, but then Isreal is formed and it all goes to pot again.

Sure, the area was "calming down" because they were running out of Jews. But those damn Jews had to start somethin' again by moving in, didn't they?

Well if you give them a reason to use a nuclear weapon on you then yes, it is your fault

This is rediculous. Again, I equate this with blaming child abuse on the kid. "You got a bad grade and provoked Mommy to beat you with a piece of lumber."

I dont see why not as many religions end up fueling wars

Religious extremism, yes. Religion in general hasn't fuelled a war for a good eight hundred years.

And thats fine and dandy, but with crusades, and jihads, and wars on islam.

"Wars on Islam"??? What the hell are you talking about?

[War Angel]

to deny innocents get deliberately killed is mad

No, it isn't, because innocents never have been TARGETED. Yes, innocents have been killed by Israel, but that was never the goal or even a required side-effect.

then you have the gunships. Taking out a terrorist by blowing up the whole street.

The Apache Longbow has one of the most accurate air-borne weapons used today - the Hellfire missile. Israel uses those. Yes, it has a certain degree of collateral damage, but it is mininal. Better than to drop a large bomb, and certainly you don't expect Israel to risk the lives of soldiers to initiate a pincer-strike on the terrorists, when there are other ways to go about it.

Also, please note that often the car is loaded with explosives, and also that people often flock around the car (again, acting as a sort of human shield).

[Sasquatch]

No, it isn't, because innocents never have been TARGETED. Yes, innocents have been killed by Israel, but that was never the goal or even a required side-effect.

As opposed to the intentional targetting of civilians, including women and children, by those supporting the Palestinian "cause". Comparing the two is just plain foolish.

[Cuchulainn]

Dear God...it's the same old same old with you two. The same tired one-sidedness, the same right wing extremism. The same Good Vs Evil..

Soldiers kill innocents. It happens, it happened here in Northern Ireland, it happened in Vietnam, WWII, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq, Chechnya etc etc etc. How on EARTH can you sit there & believe the Israeli are immune to this? It's blinkered madness.

They do, there are accounts from Palestinian's, journalists, western cameramen. I've seen footage of it....please wake up to the reality that maybe, JUST maybe it happens. I've also seen what those gunships do, I'm sorry, but unless they were AIMING to take down the whole block, accuracy isn't it's strongpoint.

No one in England could believe that Her Majesty's Forces could shoot & kill 13 innocent Civil rights marchers here, it happened. No one could believe a Police Force could collude with Loyalist Terrorists to kill certain Catholics, it happened.

Don't believe everything you are told, for the love of God. When this happens & when you deny it does, it feeds the hate even more. It recruits for Hamas, Al Aqsa etc. It's like a vicious circle, you have ther likes of Sasquatch & War Angel claiming the righteous higher ground while blatently ignoring facts which may question that, believing everything they're told in some madly naive 'Why would my government lie mummy?' type stance opposite the 'religious' fundamentalist madmen, with equally blinkered views who recruit on the strength of the Wests denial of responsibility & give cause to the word Crusader & Zionism. You are both different parts of the same beast & it's like watching a dog not only chase it's tail but bite the fecker & have the tail bite back. It's like the tape is on loop & we got to listen to it over & over & over......repeat to fade

[War Angel]

the same right wing extremism.

Dunno 'bout Sasquatch, but I'm a centrist. I very much despise right-wing ideaology (at least here), even more so than than I loathe left-wing mentallity.

How on EARTH can you sit there & believe the Israeli are immune to this?

Israeli troops are not immune to mistakes, no. Although they are superbly trained and keeping the lives of innocents ANYWHERE is their prime objective, before even taking out the enemy, they do hit innocents on rare occasions, mainly due to the circumstances on the battlefield (things I've mentioned before, like the use of children, human shields, etc). However, saying they do it on PURPOSE is outrageously wrong, and I consider it slander and an insult.

Recently, an Israeli soldier has been found to have purposely targeted an activist, killing him with a sniping shot. I don't think he'll be seeing day-light any time soon.

Now, I won't say Israelis don't mistreat Palestinians. I've seen it happen, and I loathe it. They shout at them, humiliate them, and sometimes even beat them (not without reason, but it's still not right). That is horrible, and the higher command holds this as unlawful, and those found doing it are severly punished (imprisoned then kicked out of the unit, a terrible blow to any combatant, especially an Israeli one). But, to say Israeli soldiers TARGET AND KILL innocents... that's far-fetched and outrageous.

They do, there are accounts from Palestinian's, journalists, western cameramen.

Oh, you mean the same Palestinians and jouranlists who fake casualties? Check this out. It may shed led on those 'casualties' and 'innocents murdered by Israelis'. It's really quite interesting. Pallywood.

Don't believe everything you are told, for the love of God.

I am not 'told' anything, and I daresay neither has Sasquatch. We have both SEEN, for ourselves.

It's like the tape is on loop & we got to listen to it over & over & over......repeat to fade

I assume you mean the Israeli\Arab conflict. Well, say what you will, both sides are fighting for what they think is the most important thing in the world to them. There's honour in that. Saying stuff like 'Oh, here they go again' presents those who say it in a bad, apathetic and ignorant light, like those who don't really understand what it's all about for those actually there, doing the fighting, suffering and living it all. It's easy for an on-looker to pass judgement.

I've also seen what those gunships do, I'm sorry, but unless they were AIMING to take down the whole block, accuracy isn't it's strongpoint.

The Hellfire bears less than 1kg of explosives. Any larger area-damage, and it's not due to the missile or the helicopter.

[Cuchulainn]

Dunno 'bout Sasquatch, but I'm a centrist. I very much despise right-wing ideaology (at least here), even more so than than I loathe left-wing mentallity.

For that mistake on your political views, I apologise

Israeli troops are not immune to mistakes, no. Although they are superbly trained and keeping the lives of innocents ANYWHERE is their prime objective, before even taking out the enemy, they do hit innocents on rare occasions, mainly due to the circumstances on the battlefield (things I've mentioned before, like the use of children, human shields, etc). However, saying they do it on PURPOSE is outrageously wrong, and I consider it slander and an insult.

Recently, an Israeli soldier has been found to have purposely targeted an activist, killing him with a sniping shot. I don't think he'll be seeing day-light any time soon.

You kinda pissed on your own soapbox with that one. How can you be insulted if on at least one occassion, my statement has been proven true? They have & I'm damn sure there has been more than this one time. The Israeli Army IS an army I admire, along with the Jewish people but they are just as prone to have a triggerhappy recruit with another agenda. I'm sorry but you simply cannot state they don't as fact.

Now, I won't say Israelis don't mistreat Palestinians. I've seen it happen, and I loathe it. They shout at them, humiliate them, and sometimes even beat them (not without reason, but it's still not right). That is horrible, and the higher command holds this as unlawful, and those found doing it are severly punished (imprisoned then kicked out of the unit, a terrible blow to any combatant, especially an Israeli one). But, to say Israeli soldiers TARGET AND KILL innocents... that's far-fetched and outrageous.

I refer my honorable gentleman to the statement I gave previously regarding pissing on your own soapbox.

Oh, you mean the same Palestinians and jouranlists who fake casualties? Check this out. It may shed led on those 'casualties' and 'innocents murdered by Israelis'. It's really quite interesting. Pallywood.

Yes because a website made by Jewish people for Jewish people would never have a slant on things...:rolleyes2 it';s like the Jewish Al Jazera. Bad Source.

I am not 'told' anything, and I daresay neither has Sasquatch. We have both SEEN, for ourselves.

You watch the news, you listen to peers, people are not immune to subliminal propaganda.

I assume you mean the Israeli\Arab conflict. Well, say what you will, both sides are fighting for what they think is the most important thing in the world to them. There's honour in that. Saying stuff like 'Oh, here they go again' presents those who say it in a bad, apathetic and ignorant light, like those who don't really understand what it's all about for those actually there, doing the fighting, suffering and living it all. It's easy for an on-looker to pass judgement.

I'm talking about the whole East West divide, of which Israel is on the forefront, yes. I can pass judgement as I lived in a society not too dissimilar not too long ago, where Sectarian violence went on for many many years. The same tit-for-tat crap that is going on where you live. I can pass judgement because I know what it's like living there & felt the same about here as there. No one is changing & if no one changes this will never end. Here people slowly changed.

The Hellfire bears less than 1kg of explosives. Any larger area-damage, and it's not due to the missile or the helicopter.

It definately destroys whole blocks...what makes you think only one is fired? To be honest it could be down to the shoddy houses aswell.

The place isn't moving on with the same diabolical consequences as we suffered here. That's what I was getting at. The Terrorists kill innocents, Israeli Army Kill innocents, you give the terrorists a new mandate & it continues.

[Sasquatch]

For that mistake on your political views, I apologise

Whether you were correct in that assumption or not, I fail to see how having any trust in the honor of the Israeli military is "extreme right-wing".

You kinda pissed on your own soapbox with that one. How can you be insulted if on at least one occassion, my statement has been proven true? They have & I'm damn sure there has been more than this one time. The Israeli Army IS an army I admire, along with the Jewish people but they are just as prone to have a triggerhappy recruit with another agenda. I'm sorry but you simply cannot state they don't as fact.

Your accusation wasn't that innocents get killed, but rather innocent civilians were targetted by the Israeli military. That is outrageous. Yes, it's a conflict, and civilians will be harmed (especially when they form "human shields" for that purpose, as a PR stunt that apparently you buy right in to), but you have no proof that Israeli soldiers deliberately target innocent civilians.

Yes because a website made by Jewish people for Jewish people would never have a slant on things...:rolleyes2 it';s like the Jewish Al Jazera. Bad Source.

It was a story with a reference to another site, where the movie was. Are you going to pass off everything that you disagree with as Jewish propaganda?

You watch the news, you listen to peers, people are not immune to subliminal propaganda.

So what makes you think you haven't bought in to it? What's with the popular opinion of "everybody who disagrees with me is gullible or brainwashed and can't think for themselves"?

It definately destroys whole blocks...what makes you think only one is fired? To be honest it could be down to the shoddy houses aswell.

I think they should target entire blocks, along with mosques, but hey that's just me.

[Cuchulainn]

I think they should target entire blocks, along with mosques, but hey that's just me.

<!--You pathetic little boy.-->

We don't say things like this to people.

~Void

<!--I Do. If condoning attacking mosques & blocks of muslim houses isn't the words of an idiot & my words were then there is something seriously wrong here.-->[leeza]*snip*

Whether or not there is something wrong here does not mean you can add fuel to a fire by flaming and argueng with a Mod about his decision in thread. In future, do this sort of thing through the PM system. That is what it's for. ~ Leeza[/leeza]

[Sasquatch]

Let me explain. Target entire blocks, and eventually people will say "Hmm, if we stop supporting these suicide bombers, if we stop letting them do it, we won't get our homes destroyed. Sounds like a good idea."

And mosques? The messages are spread through the mosques, and very often, weapons and explosives are stockpiled in the mosques. A message needs to be sent -- If you support them, you become them.

[Mikeneko Rocker -- Tim]

I could have sworn that's just another way to piss off the Jewish community, given the sole fact that Heny Kissinger and Paul Wolfowitz are Jews.

[edczxcvbnm]

I think the UN needs to call all the leaders of the world together and read to them Dr. Seuss's 'The Butter Battle'. Then discuss how the story relateds to their frivilous troubles like a 2nd grade class.

[Cuchulainn]

Let me explain. Target entire blocks, and eventually people will say "Hmm, if we stop supporting these suicide bombers, if we stop letting them do it, we won't get our homes destroyed. Sounds like a good idea."

And mosques? The messages are spread through the mosques, and very often, weapons and explosives are stockpiled in the mosques. A message needs to be sent -- If you support them, you become them.

That is complete & utter garbage. Doing that gives them a mandate, a reason to hate & creates martyrs. It feeds the war. It didn't stop Partisans during WWII when entire villages were obliterated in German 'retrobution', it made the fight more vehement. It certainly doesn't work here or anywhere, at any time.

Your Medieval Nazi style of dealing with this is truely & utterly insane.