There's this Al Bhed kid named Shinra who finds an energy source inside Spira while on board of the airship in FFX-2
There's this Al Bhed kid named Shinra who finds an energy source inside Spira while on board of the airship in FFX-2
This twenty-year-old boy was distinguished from childhood by strange qualities, a dreamer and an eccentric. A girl fell in love with him, and he went and sold her to a brothel...
Like I said before, Ultimania doesn't explain anything that isn't clearly explained in the game for me, e.g. I was right about the "clones" for example, and yet Ultimania thought it needed dumbing down.Originally Posted by VeloZer0
Not really, opposed or for, he is still "chosen" by the planet seeing as he is using meteor for the "new world" so it makes sense to keep his theme.
Jenova controlling Sephiroth does make some level of sense, but Square have apperently stated that it is another way around - Sephiroth takes control of Jenova, who appears as Sephiroth, it sounds more confusing than it is, but when you think about it makes a whole lot of sense, as the answer is there in front of you the whole time.
In fact, a Jenova-Puppetmaster-esque interpretation is really the only one that does make sense, covering all the strange Jenova-Sephiroth parallels and appropriately conforming to the story's intricacies. The game tells us what happens to anyone with Jenova cells when they become weak or lose self-confidence. Why should Sephiroth be an exception? So with this interpretation, we have a solid explanation for Sephioroth's change in motivation without compromising the integrity of his characterization.
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Pretty much everything else silentenigma said makes sense.
Another thing to concider, is that when Sephiroth was sent to the Lifestream, he was pretty much "dead" (by that I mean, if he was just a normal person, he would have died from all that happened that day) even with all the stuff he learns from the Lifstream, he would still be set on the same goal all the way through.
So, really his goals never changed at all when you think of it...
...........................................Not really, opposed or for, he is still "chosen" by the planet seeing as he is using meteor for the "new world" so it makes sense to keep his theme.
My god. There's being an apologist (which you did first) and then there's just being plain ridiculous.
You just said his theme makes sense. That the Planet chose him to kill the Planet and steal all its energy for himself.
So what, the Planet wants to die? It wants Sephiroth to crash a giant rock into it and monopolize all the souls of the dead so he can become a god?
The planet didn't choose crap. Sephiroth is trying to KILL THE PLANET and replace it with his own existence. He is the Planet's arch nemesis just like Jenova was. he knows it and the Plnet knows it.
The theme doesn't make sense anymore.
I don't think it's worth getting worked up over the naming of the music piece. It's a sinister theme that fits the mood at certain points of the game, and it just so happened to be named after one of the most significant scenes in which it is played. It's the same way for other pieces too - "Interrupted by Fireworks", "Underneath the Rotting Pizza" to name a couple. It's pretty irrelevant to the writing, really.
And Flying Arrow: There really isn't much in-depth history given for Shinra, just that it was a weapons manufacture that (presumably) developed mako technology for that use. Then when the war ended and there was no longer a demand for weapons, it moved to Mako Energy instead. It would be reasonable that the company had been a family company, since the President share's the company's name, and the Vice President is his son. We aren't told how many generations, though.
I meant in his (Sephiroth's) mind he has been "chosen" by the planet, you need to look at the back history of, FFVII to get this, but the characters of FFVII seem to treat the planet as sentient, and that they can recieve their messages from it, like how the Ancients find the Promised Land - they are "told" by the planet. Sephiroth may have interperted it the same way, that;s what I meant. Also, don't call me an "apologist", I really hate that, it's as if I'm not allowed to try to find reasonsings, to what I saw growing up, could you please point out where in my first post I seemed like an apologist, because I am really not one, I belive what I said, and some of it is quoted.
However, having said that, I think that silentenigma...
...is probably more likely to be right than me here, I would really like to know how you concidered me to be an apologist in my first post, and please hear out my response.
First, Sephiroth doesn't care about the Planet by the time of FFVII. That was the entire purpose of my opening post. He initially believed, incorrectly of course, that he was indeed chosen by the Planet.
However, by the time of FFVII, Sephiroth doesn't care what the Planet thinks or feels. he just wants to destroy it for his own purposes.
Second, I called you an apologist because I was feeling annoyed and argumentative. So sorry, it wasn't your fault. I was just in a pissy mood.
Yeah, Shinra were a weapons manufacturer who stumbled upon Mako energy in their weapon research and realised it was more profitable. I may be wrong, but I think they were trying to manufacture materia and that's how they found out that Mako could be used as energy.
I don't think it's too hard to believe that Sephiroth was just plain angry. He had basically been used as a tool by Shinra his entire life, and finding out that he had been manufactured like a tool would irritate most people.
There are also character traits within him that make him susceptible to megalomania and general insanity. Before his origins are discovered, he tells Cloud that he has always felt different, which is a modest way of saying special. He already believed he was superior before he found out that this was a genetic fact.
He then reads and believes that he comes from a superior form of humanity, which sacrificed itself for humanity. So, he believes he is superior, that his people are dead because of humans, he is already unhappy with the Shinra situation, so he decides to destroy everything that is inferior to him.
Once he had reached that stage, it doesn't take much to want to destroy people because of some ill-founded belief of ancestry with just wanting to destroy the world to gain power.
You could also argue that, because he was basically the child of Jenova, there was a genetic instinct for him to destroy.
Anyway, to sum up my long post, Sephiroth was a) vengeful and b) felt superior. These two traits of his character do not change throughout the game, they only change in intensity and the way his actions manifest from them.
AND the game tell us that Sephiroth's will is practically unmatched, that he was the one responsible for the current Reunion(Hojo literally says that, at the Whirlwind-Maze), and that the clones are attending Sephiroth's call(they never mention Jenova's name or "Mother").
Not to mention the other clues like, Jenova allways being "The Dragon"(TV-Tropes reference here) for Sephiroth, it's headless body appearing as Sephiroth(and not herself) for some unnexplained(but obvious) reason, and etc.
So no, the Jenova-Puppetmaster-esque interpretation doesn't make any sense. It ignores important plot-points of the story, only to make Sephiroth look like a "Draco in Leather Pants" and make the fangirls happy, or to make him look like a pathetic mindless puppet and make his haters happy.
But I agree that Jenova has some influence on his actions, due to the strong connection between them.
Question: Do you know why Kefka succeeded in destroying the planet?
Answer: Because the planet didn't fight back.
TVtropes is not a source you can use to back up your arguments dawg.
This twenty-year-old boy was distinguished from childhood by strange qualities, a dreamer and an eccentric. A girl fell in love with him, and he went and sold her to a brothel...
His will is indeed strong at this point, but this is long after his breakdown - long after when his intentions would have become subconsciously aligned with JENOVA's impulses. ("influence")
But all of that aside:
...hence the -esque (as well as first three quarters of my post).But I agree that Jenova has some influence on his actions, due to the strong connection between them.
I might be able to clarify this a little more with (what else!) a Lord of the Rings reference. The Ring is a part of Sauron, forged from his blood, his strength, his emotions. Yet, when the final battle on the fields of Pellenor takes place, Sauron fears that Aragorn has the Ring and will use it against him. Why? Because, despite what the movies imply, the Ring could destroy Sauron. The Ring was the only thing that could undo him, either through its destruction or its power. Used by someone with a stronger will, it could purge Sauron from this world.Jenova controlling Sephiroth does make some level of sense, but Square have apperently stated that it is another way around - Sephiroth takes control of Jenova, who appears as Sephiroth, it sounds more confusing than it is, but when you think about it makes a whole lot of sense, as the answer is there in front of you the whole time.
In fact, a Jenova-Puppetmaster-esque interpretation is really the only one that does make sense, covering all the strange Jenova-Sephiroth parallels and appropriately conforming to the story's intricacies. The game tells us what happens to anyone with Jenova cells when they become weak or lose self-confidence. Why should Sephiroth be an exception? So with this interpretation, we have a solid explanation for Sephioroth's change in motivation without compromising the integrity of his characterization.
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Why, then, did our heroes not take advantage of this? Because that would not change the nature of the Ring. It was still an object of evil and corruption. Merely desiring it can corrupt someone, and using it corrupts them further. Aragorn could have overcome Sauron, but using the Ring in that way would have had such an impact on his soul that he would have become a Dark Lord himself, one who (since he had defeated Sauron) would have been even more powerful. For that matter, Galadriel (had she been stronger willed than Sauron, a question never directly answered, since they never have a mental battle) would have been much the same thing. "In place of a Dark Lord you would have a queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the dawn! Treacherous as the sea! Stronger than the foundations of the earth! All shall love me and despair!" New name, new personality, same evil.
Jenova works out much this way. It's a small, unassuming thing. It works its way in, shifting and corrupting. Putting on a friendly face, the Ancients do not recognize it until it is too late. As the calamity reaches its peak, the Cetra sacrifice everything to be rid of it, and it is lost for millenia. When found it is used, by those ignorant of its true nature and purpose. It begins, slowly, to eat away at their hearts and minds. During his time in the Lifestream, Sephiorth finally realizes what Jenova is, that it is more than just some nameless cells inside him, that it has a mind, a purpose, and that it is trying to use even him. He gathers his own will against it, and overcomes it. But no one makes it out of a fight like that without scars. Jenova as it was is gone, yes. One Dark Lord defeated. But using that power so warped and twisted Sephiroth that he no longer has the moral strength to proceed down a correct path. His old path, avenging the Ancients and restoring his mother is lost, for he destroyed Jenova himself and learns that he is closer to a descendent of that which destroyed the Ancients than Cloud is. So he dwells, with no path to follow, with no route to take, and with his very soul torn asunder by the conflict he won.
So he chose a new path.
Last edited by Skyblade; 02-04-2011 at 12:13 AM.
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That is the first thing I have ever read that made the Sephiroth controlling Jenova concept make any sense.
That's a really good and valid interpretation, Skyblade. Keeps the narrative's integrity intact and everything. I'd say I still have the same position as before, but I'm impressed nonetheless!
The LotR reference is perfect!
And remember: One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
Everyone with Jenova cells, Cloud included, were lead to The Reunion. Thus, Sephiroth was still somewhat Jenova, and planning to combine all the cells back together, because as Ilfana (or someone idk) said that Jenova will keep trying to repiecce itself back together, as it did back with the Ancients, and as Ilfana predicted.
IMO Sephs became a successor to Jenova, but she was still alive inside him. He did take a turn and change his mind about things, but I feel that was Jenova's influence.
I don't understand why it is so surprising for people that Sephiroth changed his first plan to free the world from the traitors, the human race as he thought first, to the second plan to become the ultimate being. It is like Forsaken Lover says a typical villain aspect to plan something which makes him/her even stronger than before. All of the other Final Fantasy villains before Sephiroth did that. And so did Sephiroth.
Sephiroth is JENOVA's descendant as Aerith is one of the Ancients. While JENOVA follows her instincts, Sephiroth does, too but as an actual character because he thinks "I am the chosen one. I am no special human, I am no ancient, but I am still special. I am better than all of them and I am chosen to be the ultimate being." And like JENOVA absorbs life to become stronger because it is her meaning of life Sephiroth does the same then. He wants to become better and better. He is the typical villain with the goal of superlatives, just with his own and special story. And of course even with his first plan he wanted to rule everything so the ultimate goal is still the same just with another method.
Last edited by Sephiroth; 12-08-2013 at 05:07 PM.
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