The Nature of Kingdom Hearts - Page 7

PuPu · 10-30-2009, 06:14 AM

participants have a flawed understanding of material space as featured in KH

tried to break up 179 into too itty-bitty literary components

What does this even mean?

I'm not really sure what you're arguing at this point

My main point is:
Xemnas made the KH of Worlds come to him in TWTNW by using the KH of men.

semantics; therefore, you are both screwed, because English sucks

Welcome to 99% of all debates.

Therefore, I declare the winner to be me for actually reading all of this.

Good job. Now you can leave knowing that you purposely managed to make yourself do something you didn't even want to do. And you won't have to worry about how long the page is when you're no longer in this topic.

Tavrobel · 10-30-2009, 06:28 AM

It means you're trying to bring too much outside knowledge into your analysis of the game. It's already bad enough to bring in what Nomura says about it (seeing as he's got a good two games to expand on it in the near future, and he's an idiot), but if an event did not happen or that you can't rationalize it based on the evidence in the games, you can't say it happened. I thought it was fairly obvious.

As for your explanation of how space in KH works, it is rickety at best. If you're going to differentiate between the KH of the World and KH as it appears to individuals, you're going to have to seriously revise your explanation of how characters interact with KH.

And no, I'm always here. If I'm not, then it means I'm in General Chat. No one wants that.

PuPu · 10-30-2009, 06:51 AM

What the games say and what Nomura says are essentially the same in regards to the storyline. If I can rationalize it based on what Nomura directly said, it's just as good, if not better than what is said in the games.

The games already differentiated between the two KH's in, the DSR13 just confirms what the games have said.

I'm always here too. The FF boards just aren't that interesting, I guess.

Wolf Kanno · 10-30-2009, 10:44 AM

I'm not even going to bother with the whole retort since you cannot even be civil with anyone in this thread. I'm actually in agreement with Tavrobel about how utterly ridiculous our discussion is. I'm just going to stick to the main point cause personally, I could care less about the definition of a world in KH, or whether KH is a world. Its a McGuffin, plain and simple.

Ruin - From Webster's Dictionary
Main Entry: ²ruinFunction: verb
Date: 1585
transitive verb 1 : to reduce to ruins : devastate
2 a : to damage irreparably b : bankrupt, impoverish ed by stock speculation>
3 : to subject to frustration, failure, or disaster intransitive verb : to become ruined

From Cambridge Dictionary
ruin verb

/ˈruː.ɪn/ v [T]

•
to spoil or destroy severely or completely
Huge modern hotels have ruined this once unspoilt coastline.
Her injury ruined her chances of winning the race.

•
to cause a person or company to lose all their money or their reputation
Cheap imported goods are ruining many businesses.
If there's a scandal I'll be ruined!

This is why I hate the English language.

As for the Nomura and Nojima line. You obviously didn't read the whole thing or took proper grammar.

For example, the heart-shaped moon in the previous game’s key visual showed up this time as the Kingdom Hearts. Did you think of doing this right from the start?
No, I didn’t. I asked Nojima-san (Nojima Kazushige) to write KHII’s scenario and in his scenario it was written that the Kingdom Hearts Xemnas created is “like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was.” When I read that, I thought “Oh, this can be connected!” (laugh) so I made it to look like the moon in the previous game’s key visual. The World that Never Was has the “Dark City” right from the beginning of the game’s development and since then its background is night. That’s why when Nojima-san wrote that Xemnas was creating Kingdom Hearts in the sky, coincidentally he wrote “it looks like a moon” but I thought it got connected by destiny.

Also, the quotation marks used in the original sentence, “like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was.” is proceeded by Nomura saying he read it off of Nojima's scenario. Thus the quotation marks are being used to signify Nomura quoting something Nojima wrote, as opposed to him saying "like" a moon in the TWTNW. He later says "it looks like a moon" signifying what Nojima meant by like. No where does it say this is the case of Sora learning that worlds look like star in the sky to other words as you are trying to pin this on. Had the line read, "like a moon seen in TWTNW" you would have an argument but instead your wasting my time with trying to say "in" does not constitute its meaning in this sentence because its in quotes. You also fail to notice the word before in, floats, as in an action, "floats in" means it is "floating in the World" as opposed to outside of it.

We don't see moons or suns rotating outside for the worlds but they have them nonetheless which means they exist within the worlds. Nomura and Nojima say its in the TWTNW, so yes, they retcon something within KH, guess what? They can do this cause they are the creator and scenario writer and its in their power to do so. They have done it before in other projects.

So guess what, we know Hearts form KH in Darkness its never said hearts can only form KH in the Dark Realm and Nojima, Nomura, and Xemnas prove this. Cause Xemnas forms KHoM in TWTNW.

We never see KHoW summoned. We see Ansem accidentally destroy KHoM, we then see the wreckage of a KH with a freaking hole in it exactly where KHoM was. If Xemnas had already summoned KHoW, where was it up until this point? Behind KHoM? Also, saying Xemnas did it off screen is okay, cause "we never see Ansem sneak into CTNW" is a terrible excuse. There is a big difference on story impact between watching a side character sneak into a location and watching a villain fulfill his plans by summoning the ultimate McGuffin. He never talks about summoning it, no one mentions "hey, there's a new KH, must be the real one!", we do not see any scene depicting what you say and your only argument that says you are right is one lousy english word used in a melodramatic tone and the fact KH says KH exists in Darkness. If he doesn't talk about it, and we don't see him do it, and no one recognizes he did, chances are... he never did it.

Well I found you two more "verb form" explanation for ruin and neither says it absolutely and only means "completely destroyed" which works, cause who says crap like "its ruined" and actually means its "completely destroyed" from an objective standpoint? I sat on my cake and now its ruined. It doesn't mean the cake is "completely destroyed" it still exists its just looks like a crushed cake with my ass imprinted on it. FFVI has the "Ruined World" its hardly "completely destroyed" otherwise the game would have ended right then and there.

Nojima and Nomura say the KHoM is floating in TWTNW and it looks like a moon. Xemnas never summons KHoW, its not even mentioned in the game, instead he absorbs the "ruined" as in "irreparable or severally destroyed" KHoM and battles the party. All you need to do is play the game and see for yourself.

At this point in time, I've grown tired of dealing with you so don't bother replying to this post, cause as far as I'm concerned, I believe I am right and you believe you are right and neither of us can convince the other either way, so the whole discussion is moot.

Guardian XIII · 10-30-2009, 06:32 PM

This is late in coming and I don't have the patience to read through all these mile long posts to see if it was brought up but regarding Kanno's theory about KH being the reflection of one's heart, you said something about not understanding why it looked the same for Xemnas as it did for Ansem. Maybe it's because Xemnas, as a Nobody, doesn't have a heart for it to reflect itself off of so it took the form of the last person's to open it.

Just a thought.

PuPu · 10-30-2009, 11:35 PM

This is why I hate the English language.

We both know that applying definitions such as bankruptcy make no sense at all in this case, so why bring them up?

2 a : to damage irreparably

Xemnas told the Keybladers to "bring him more hearts." Could it be to use the hearts to repair his supposedly still standing KHoM? Nah, it can't be, because it is so damaged that it can't be repaired. Now he needs to create the KHoM again in order to achieve true omnipotence like he wanted.

Have fun proving that ruined does NOT mean "irreparable."

I'm not even going to bother with the whole retort since you cannot even be civil with anyone in this thread.

This is coming from the guy that's saying:

-"I think my points are better than PuPu's because I think he's got nothing to prove himself right, even though I've got nothing to say I'm right either."

-"Because it's never said I'm wrong, I'm right. I can also make up my own rules to what Nomura says as well."

-"I don't like how the game showed how things really worked, so therefore the game is incorrect."

Seriously, if I were "civil," I could just mimic you and we'd both end up getting nowhere, because we'd both be stalemated by "you can't prove yourself right, and you can't prove the other guy wrong" to every single point that either of us made. That's an even worse scenario than what actually happened.

I'm actually in agreement with Tavrobel about how utterly ridiculous our discussion is.

I agree, due to the reasons stated above.

I'm just going to stick to the main point cause personally, I could care less about the definition of a world in KH, or whether KH is a world.

One of the first points you made was that KH can't go to TWTNW because of world barriers. KH isn't a world, one of your points fails.

You obviously didn't read the whole thing or took proper grammar.

Actually it seems that we both missed one important part.

Did you think of doing this right from the start?

You'll know what I mean in a few sentences...

Also, the quotation marks used in the original sentence, “like a moon that floats in the World that Never Was.” is proceeded by Nomura saying he read it off of Nojima's scenario. Thus the quotation marks are being used to signify Nomura quoting something Nojima wrote, as opposed to him saying "like" a moon in the TWTNW.

That only changes the fact that it's Nojima that wrote "like it is in TWTNW" rather than Nomura. Had it been written the way you wanted, it would go "...is 'like a moon' that floats in the World that Never Was."

He later says "it looks like a moon" signifying what Nojima meant by like.

Because the interview refers to the game "from the start" as in, early production, this means that it was originally planned on being "in TWTNW," but that it wasn't. He later says "it looks like a moon" which is missing the "in TWTNW" part, meaning Nomura only acknowledged the moon part and not the "in TWTNW" part. And it says that Nomura only cared about the moon part because it fit the moon on the KH1 box, he completely disregarded the "in TWTNW" part.

Besides, it's not hard to believe that Nomura changed around ideas that were originally planned for the game, considering that early scans of KH2 show scenes of Sora and Org13 in the Hollow Bastion castle, but it was later removed from the actual game.

No where does it say this is the case of Sora learning that worlds look like star in the sky to other words as you are trying to pin this on.

I never said that it did. But you can't deny they are at least very similar cases, if not the same.

You also fail to notice the word before in, floats, as in an action, "floats in" means it is "floating in the World" as opposed to outside of it.

It doesn't change the fact that "like" still applies to "in" and "floats in."

We don't see moons or suns rotating outside for the worlds but they have them nonetheless which means they exist within the worlds.

I'm sorry, did you just imply that Neil Armstrong became famous in 1969 for being the first person to step foot on a place "within Earth"?

Nomura and Nojima say its in the TWTNW, so yes, they retcon something within KH, guess what? They can do this cause they are the creator and scenario writer and its in their power to do so.

The only part they retconned was "in TWTNW."

its never said hearts can only form KH in the Dark Realm

But that isn't what you're trying to prove. You're trying to prove specifically that the hearts formed in TWNTW, which you haven't. Ever.

Cause Xemnas forms KHoM in TWTNW.

He maybe could have done it in Nojima's mind, but not in the actual KH2 that Nomura created.

We never see KHoW summoned.

We never see DiZ infiltrate into TWTNW either, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

We see Ansem accidentally destroy KHoM

"Accidentally?" That was his entire plan all along, to destroy KHoM, whether by turning it into data and deleting it, or making it blow up.

we then see the wreckage of a KH with a freaking hole in it exactly where KHoM was.

...where KHoM was. And where it was already combined with KHoW.

If Xemnas had already summoned KHoW, where was it up until this point? Behind KHoM?

KHoW ended up in TWTNW, where Xemnas absorbs it. KHoM got destroyed almost immediately after.

Also, saying Xemnas did it off screen is okay, cause "we never see Ansem sneak into CTNW" is a terrible excuse.

No it isn't. The terrible excuse is calling one thing that isn't shown that's obvious as okay, while calling another not shown and obvious thing isn't. Xemnas was in TWTNW the whole time, his KHoM was destroyed

There is a big difference on story impact between watching a side character sneak into a location and watching a villain fulfill his plans by summoning the ultimate McGuffin.

There isn't a big difference when that "side character" is a major part of ruining the villain's plans almost immediately after he arrives.

He never talks about summoning it

So? He never talks about tons of things that he did, but didn't talk about. Everybody can do things without talking about them.

no one mentions "hey, there's a new KH, must be the real one!"

No one has to. Xemnas already told you the KH he made was gone.

we do not see any scene depicting what you say

We do not see any scene depicting that Xemnas formed KHoM in TWTNW either. Seriously, not only is this stuff that you're doing weak, but it can easily be applied to your points as well.

and your only argument that says you are right is one lousy english word

Which is actually enough to prove that KHoM was gone, thus making everything else I said true.

and the fact KH says KH exists in Darkness

It's still more than what you've got to say that Xemnas made KHoM in TWTNW.

If he doesn't talk about it, and we don't see him do it, and no one recognizes he did, chances are... he never did it.

Xemnas did talk about his KHoM being completely destroyed, we did see Ansem destroy it, and everyone recognizes it was completely destroyed because they saw Ansem and Xemnas talking about it. Try harder.

Well I found you two more "verb form" explanation for ruin and neither says it absolutely and only means "completely destroyed" which works, cause who says crap like "its ruined" and actually means its "completely destroyed" from an objective standpoint? I sat on my cake and now its ruined. It doesn't mean the cake is "completely destroyed" it still exists its just looks like a crushed cake with my ass imprinted on it.

You're also acting like "not completely destroyed" is the only definition. The most ridiculous and incorrect part in this entire quote is you implying that you've been looking at it objectively. But now got two things that says I'm right thanks to you, so have fun with "irreparably."

FFVI has the "Ruined World" its hardly "completely destroyed" otherwise the game would have ended right then and there.

"World of Ruin (noun)."

Nojima and Nomura say the KHoM is floating in TWTNW and it looks like a moon.

1. "Like" applies to the whole phrase.
2. This was in early KH2 production.
3. The final product of KH2 only has Nomura acknowledge "like a moon." "in TWNTW" is completely disregarded by Nomura.

Xemnas never summons KHoW, its not even mentioned in the game

Xemnas never fused with KHoM, it's not even mentioned in the game.

instead he absorbs the "ruined" as in "irreparable or severally destroyed"

Yet he asks for more hearts...which he can't use to fix his "irreparable" KHoM. And he wanted full omnipotence, which is KHoW and KHoM. A non-destroyed and non-irreparable KHoM, obviously.

At this point in time, I've grown tired of dealing with you so don't bother replying to this post, cause as far as I'm concerned, I believe I am right and you believe you are right and neither of us can convince the other either way, so the whole discussion is moot.

Maybe 90% of the points that you've made are only supported with "nothing proves me wrong," but at least every point I've made, including the ones made in response opposite to the claims you've made first, don't automatically fail for lack of proof.

A child can claim to me that Santa Claus exists and do the same thing that you've been doing for every point you've made and still think he's right, but I should hope that both of us know he's wrong.