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| Cid's Knight  |
#33  I already understand this but I feel the answer is completely unsatisfactory and contradicts information already stated in the series (and the Director's Reports no less). The world's are separate by a great distance of space in all cases (even the Beach of Nothingness is stated to peer into the World of Darkness by Nomura, he never said you could reach it by being there.) and the World of Darkness presented in KH1 is locked away and yet here's Xemnas, with a Kingdom Hearts in his backyard as if it was always like this. Even if they were in "spitting distance" the worlds should be technically separate from each other by a barrier after the events of KH1. Its obvious that Xemnas didn't use a Corridor of Darkness to reach KH nor did DiZ when he tried to digitize KH. Kingdom Hearts is treated as physically existing in that world despite this contradicting the info given in KH1. The worlds didn't create the DTD of KH1, the Seven Princess's of Heart created the means to reach it with the Final Keyhole. KH1 pretty much implies that the DTD is at a specific location just as it also implies Kingdom Hearts (or at least the Heart of Worlds) is located in a specific place (World of Darkness) how then can KH and the DTD be ethereal and intangible things that come and go on a whim as KHII implies? Basically are there two Kingdom Hearts as Nomura implies in his interview? Is the Heart of Worlds located in the Realm of Darkness and is the Heart of Man an abstract concept that exist wherever it wishes to be? If both are one part of the true Kingdom Hearts, how then can Xemnas and Heartless Xehanort truly achive their goals by only obtaining what appears to be one half of the cosmological whole? Or is KH something like a physics and philosophical allusion to the Christian concept of the Trinity? Being both tangible and intangible, being a place both physically and metaphorically. This is ultimately what I'm trying to discover and regretfully, Nomura's interview only makes the issue more difficult to comprehend. |
10-27-2009, 12:54 AM
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 | No...it really doesn't. Because KH is in a specific part of the World of Darkness, one which TWTNW happens to be near. Mickey, Riku, and the Heartless disagree with this statement. Um, ya. It's convenient, but it's true. Did you miss the whole "Kingdom Hearts isn't a world" deal? There's obviously more than one way to get to KH. You saw one way in KH1, and you see another way in KH2. It's not contradictory at all, it was never implied that there was only one way to get to KH. Alright, I'll give you that. You've got to stop doing this. It didn't "imply" it at all, that place where you fought Xehanort's Heartless in KH1 is really just a random location and not specific at all location that's very close to the Realm of Darkness. ...with more than one way of getting there. KH didn't come and go on a whim at all. It's in the Realm of Darkness in KH1, still in the Realm of Darkness in KH2. How can the DTD come and go on a whim? It doesn't matter how, all that matters is that it did. When Sora, Mickey, and Riku sealed it in KH1, it went poof and it appeared out of thin air when they needed to open it again. But, as Mickey said, the worlds did it. Saïx: Pitiful Heartless, mindlessly collecting hearts. And yet they know not the true power of what they hold. The rage of the Keyblade releases those hearts. They gather in darkness, masterless and free...until they weave together to make Kingdom Hearts [of men]. Have you been paying attention at all? The KH of worlds already existed, and as Saix said, Xemnas made the KH of men and combined it with the KH of worlds. That's both KH's that he had, until Ansem the Wise blew up the KH of men with his machine, causing most, if not all of the hearts that Xemnas collected to rain down from the sky. As for XH, he only cared about the darkness in KH, not the power that KH has itself. Uh...no? Why? Just because it disagrees with your own views? |
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10-27-2009, 02:00 AM
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 | So I only just read the Director's Secret report (your posts made me realize it exists)... I still say that the KH of World and KH of Men are two separate things. The evidence is in 358/2, since the KH outside TWTNW only appears after Roxas starts collecting hearts for Org. XIII. Were the hearts of men simply added to KH of Worlds, then KH would have always been visible from the Grey Room, but it wasn't. Also, KH is definitely a place, since that is where the final battle in KHII occurs. Xenmas takes control of the power of KH, that's how he "became one" and had power over it. I don't think it is inside him, the power yes not the physical KH. You might not want to call it a "world" but it is a place. Just because KH, whichever one you want, is the "Proof of Life" doesn't prevent it from being a place as well. As the final battle of KHII clearly indicates. DTD and Dark Corridors are two different things. DTD is made by the hearts of the Princesses of Heart and leads one from the Realm of Light to the Realm of Darkness. Dark Corridors are summoned by beings with power over Darkness, like Nobodies, Riku and assuming King Mickey (since you know, he has the Keyblade of Darkness) and you travel through Darkness. The last battle in KHI happens in the Realm of Darkness, somewhere. Just a random place in the Realm of Darkness. As for the barriers Wolf is mentioning it is the barriers between the worlds, not the one between the realms. To travel between realms you either use DTD, Door to Light or Dark Corridors, at least that is the only way they have shown so far. Apparently Twilight Town is close enough to the Realm of Light that you can just Gummi it. |
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10-27-2009, 06:47 AM
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| Cid's Knight |
The whole point of KH1 was to seal the world and prevent the Heartless from interfering and destroying the Heart of these individual worlds. One of Sora's missions in KH2 is creating pathways of light between the World's in the Realm of Light. How then can two separate worlds openly interfere with each other at the end of KH2 when its has been stated time and agin that the world's are separate by a barrier, not to mention the hell you have to go through to get from Twilight Town to The World That Never Was which was only accomplished by going through a Corridor of Darkness. You are basically saying the rules don't always apply. I mean if it was that easy to get from the Realm of Light to the Realm of Darkness by going through the In-Between Worlds what the smurf was Xehanort's Heartless even bothering with the DTD in KH1? Because KH is in a specific part of the World of Darkness, one which TWTNW happens to be near.[QUOTE] I can give you that.
Seeing as how Heartless can still get into world's after they have had their Heart's sealed away shows that locking has limitations. They prevent the flood of Darkness into the Realm of Light but it still can't prevent entities from interacting between both worlds if they use Corridors of Darkness. Riku only made it to Castle Oblivion cause "his heart led him to Sora". "What in the world do you think you're prattling on about? Kingdom Hearts belongs to me! The Heart of all Kingdoms! The Heart of all that lives! A dominion fit to be called Kingdom Hearts must be my dominion!" -Maleficent Kingdom Hearts 1 I don't mean to create confusion by saying its a world in the sense that KH series defines a world, I just mean to imply it is a physical place and not a philosophical abstract thought like VII's "Promised Land". The fact of the matter is you can journey and get there cause its a place you can travel to. It is partially contradicting or at least bad writing as Xehanort's Heartless as well as the Disney Villains bust there asses to create the Final Keyhole and open the DTD to reach Kingdom Hearts whereas Organization XIII simply forms one in there backyard. having easy access to it despite Maleficent and Xehanort's Heartless having the same powers to travel to the Realm of Darkness. I find this makes everything in KH1 seem pointless and silly since there is an incredibly simply way to get to KH revealed in the sequel. Am I the only one who sees this as faulty writing? I would say the End of the World is a real location, temporary but hardly random. It also a place that cannot be accessed openly without the Final Keyhole, I would say that constitutes a "specific location". Even if that location is simply a place close to the Realm of Darkness its still a specific place considering many of the other world's that qualify for being close don't. Considering the nature of the Heartless and the End of the World as well as their correlations to the Realm of Darkness, I can't see the DTD opening anywhere else in the KH universe. If it appeared in the World That Never Was, Xehanort's Heartless could just pluck KH out of the sky  ...that makes the first game seem retarded and a waste of time since KH can be down the street... No, KH is magically in the World That Never Was that is in the In-between Realm. Yes, its close to the Realm of Darkness but its still stated by Nomura to not be a direct part of the Realm of Darkness. At present, there are 4 worlds in-between these planes that have appeared. A) Castle Oblivion, B)Twilight Town, C) Yen Sid's Tower, and D) The World That Never Was. - Director's Secret Report XIII The World That Never was is a World, separate from the other worlds but it still has a barrier like other worlds, you're party was only able to reach said World through a Corridor of Darkness from another World of In-Between; showing that even when World's share the same property, they still don't have easy access to each other. The Major error comes from the simple fact that this World, stated to be specifically in the Realm of In-Between by the creator, can freely access the Realm of Darkness. Even after beating Xemnas, Sora and Riku find themselves at the dark coastline which is stated by Nomura to still not be a part of the Realm of Darkness but as close as you can get. Between the In-Between World and the Realm of Darkness What can be called the dark coastline seen at the beginning and end of KHII is the tip of a world. It is not strictly part of the realm of darkness but rather what serves as the boundary line in between the dark and the in-between Once again, how can Xemnas and Org. XIII interact with a KH in an In-Between World when it is stated to be in the Realm of Darkness and there is a clear dividing line between this world and that realm?
Yes, KH forms in the Realm of Darkness, World That Never Was is not part of the Realm of Darkness, yet KH forms in this Wolrd no less. Thank you for proving this inconsistency. Have you been paying attention at all? The KH of worlds already existed, and as Saix said, Xemnas made the KH of men and combined it with the KH of worlds. That's both KH's that he had, until Ansem the Wise blew up the KH of men with his machine, causing most, if not all of the hearts that Xemnas collected to rain down from the sky. As for XH, he only cared about the darkness in KH, not the power that KH has itself. [QUOTE] XH believed KH true nature was darkness... I would say he cared about the whole package since he believed KH to be darkness. I'm also curious to know where you came up with Xemnas' plan to combine the Hearts of World with the Hearts of Men since I don't remember him ever stating such a grandiose plan nor do I remember Saix saying anything like that, even the quote above simply refers to Hearts returning to darkness and forming KH which is something stated more or less in KH1. Is this another reference to 358/2? No, because it disagrees with its own metaphysics stated by the creator. As I said, he states worlds are separate, forces the player through hoops to overcome these basic rules of the game universe and then turns around and has the villains break all the rules yet never explain how they did. He even has one set of villains go through hell and back to reach it and another set have the easiest time getting it and are only restricted by minor details. Not to mention KH is basically a McGuffin who is said to have one set of rules in KH1 and then has conflicting rules in KH2, Summoner of Leviathan even said in his post that and create what appears to be a new KH in their own world despite players knowing that the original KH is somewhere in the Realm of Darkness. Basically, I wish to discuss the nature of KH which is both a place and concept. XH seeked KH the "place" which is made from the Heart's of World and Heart's of Men; while Org XIII created their own KH through the Hearts of Men. If KH can be artifically created, how did Xemnas do it? How could he stop hearts from returning to the KH in the Realm of Darkness? Now that Xemnas is gone, what became of the KH he created? Did it return to the true KH? or did it also fall into darkness and create a new legion of Heartless in The World That Never Was like when Asme tried to destroy it originally. |
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10-27-2009, 10:46 PM
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| | The KH of Worlds was locked away in KH1, so Xemnas needed to KH of men in order for him to get the KH of worlds. After all, if he could already see the KH of worlds, he'd be fusing with it already. The part between entering the door and defeating Chair Xemnas 1 is not inside Kingdom Hearts. It is inside a world that Xemnas created using the power of Kingdom Hearts, similar to how when Sora fought Xemnas one-on-one, the Memory Skyscraper wasn't the actual one in TWTNW, it was just a place that Xemnas created. Then you are back in the "real" TWNTW again after defeating Chair Xemnas 1, and then you go to the Realm of Nothing for Zebra Xemnas. That's not what "become one with" means. See: Roxas becomes one with Sora, Xion becomes one with Roxas, Naminé becomes one with Kairi, etc. I'm sorry, but did you just say "A heart is a place"? Not that it matters, because if it isn't a world, then it doesn't have the barriers around that all the other worlds have. Uh, no. It was in a place in the Realm of In-between that was close to the Realm of Darkness. Riku and Mickey were the ones actually in the Realm of Darkness. What? SDG have easily been able to travel between Realm of In-between Worlds and Realm of Light Worlds in both KH1 and KH2. As Yen Sid said, the pathways that Sora made in KH2 were made specifically for him, not the Heartless, Org13, or anyone else. After all, the Heartless and Org13 were using their own paths, Dark Corridors. The DTD led him to the specific part of the Realm of Darkness with Kingdom Hearts, the thing which he thought was full of dark energy. Xemnas didn't go to Kingdom Hearts. He made the KH of worlds go to him, by using his KH of men. Are you also saying a heart is a place? And guess what? I can journey my way over to my TV, but I wouldn't call my TV a place. Are you joking? It took ~10 years since Birth By Sleep for Xemnas and the Organization to create Heartless out of people and then collect all of those hearts in order to make the KH of men. It took nearly just as long for XH and Maleficent & friends to find the Princesses of Hearts as well. It's not like you can just go to the Realm of Darkness and randomly search for it. That's like a one in infinity chance of finding something in an entire dimension, not to mention that knowing KH, it probably isn't just going to let people get near it to absorb its power. I'm sorry, did you just call a giant door, a place? What does this even mean? But you did, and you can't just go "nu-uh, it's only supposed to open in one place by this one method in KH1!" KH didn't appear in TWTNW. ...which could only be accessed by collecting several billions of hearts... In this quote, made up lies. At this point, I shouldn't even bother continuing until you show me the actual evidence. Lol, no. Xemnas didn't go to KH in the Realm of Darkness. He made KH come to him, in TWTNW. Notice that after you defeat Chair Xemnas 1, you're right back in TWTNW. They never went to the Realm of Darkness during the battle with Xemnas, so I don't see your point. Xemnas and the Org never went into the Realm of Darkness, the Hearts did. And once again, the KH of men is not in TWTNW. There's just one little problem with what you said. That it's wrong. And the difference is that Xemnas cared about specifically the entire power of hearts, whereas XH only cared about the darkness that happens to come from hearts. I can see why that post is somewhat confusing. Saix didn't say that Xemnas combined the two, but he did say that Xemnas made the KH of men. But again, if you remember that Ansem the Wise blew a huge hole into KH, and Xemnas said that he'll needed to "start all over again" and then told the Keybladers to "bring him more hearts" obviously his KH of men got ruined and started raining hearts. But he still managed to absorb KH's power, the KH of World's power that is. -The pathways created in KH2 were for Sora only. -Villains use Dark Corridor hax. Finding 7 Princesses in an entire dimension vs. collecting billions of hearts Yeah, real difference in difficulty there. And the players should know that they are looking at the KH of men that Xemnas created in the Realm of Darkness, since it's easy to see the Realm of Darkness from TWTNW. I'm still not getting how you think the KH of men is in TWTNW and not the Realm of Darkness. ...by taking billions of hearts and having them cluster together. You literally see him do it in KH2. They don't normally return to KH, they return to their original bodies, as said in the DSR13. Last edited by PuPu; 10-28-2009 at 01:41 AM.. |
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10-28-2009, 12:06 AM
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| | The game CLEARLY states several times that Kingdom Hearts is a place. You have to basically ignore what everyone else says to think otherwise. Nomura never said it wasn't a place either. So yeah, KH is pretty much confirmed to be an actually place. As for a heart being a place, KH is more than a single heart. Furthermore, it is not an unusual idea if you know anything about Buddhism. In Pure Land thought, Amida can be thought of being a mental state/state of consciousness, the nembutsu, his Western Pure Land, and some other things. This might seem tangential, but it purpose is to say that yeah KH is the integration of hearts but it can be a place at the same time. Also, I assume that the In-Between Worlds are close enough to the Realm of Light that you can Gummi Ship it. TWTNW is closer to the Realm of Darkness thus the reason that the first time you go to it you must take a Corridors to Darkness/Dark Corridors. Also, I was specifically talking about DTD and Dark Corridors in regards of travelling between the Realm of Light and the Realm of Darkness. I said "realms", I know but I wasn't really considering In-Between during that. Wolf said that End of World is a place, not the DTD which is located therein. I am pretty sure the two KHs never became one. There is a lot more evidence indicating two KH simultaneously existing than to theorize that the two became one. Basically, KH of Worlds is sealed away so Xemnas can't get to it, so he makes his own using the hearts freed by the Keyblade masters. I do not recall at any point there being indication for the seal locking away the KH of Worlds being broken or the two coming into one. |
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10-28-2009, 01:40 AM
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| | The only stuff I remember is stuff like "the place where all hearts go" or something like that. But so what? My computer is the "place" where all my personal data goes, and that doesn't make my computer a place. Don't give me "well nothing says I'm wrong" BS. Nomura also never said that KH2FM wasn't going to be released outside of Japan either, but we all know the answer to that. If you're going to try and prove me wrong, don't use worthless, unmoderated, trash, wikia sites to do so. Now you're just defining "place" in an abstract way. Either way, because KH is not a world, it doesn't have the walls that other worlds do. And why would being closer to darkness prevent Sora from getting there by Gummi Ship? You're right that the DTD and Dark Corridors can get you to go from the Realm of Light to the Realm of Darkness. But what does jumping directly from Light to Dark and skipping In-Between have to do with what you are saying? You're not in End of the World anymore once you are done fighting Ansem 2, and the DTD is NOT in EotW. Xemnas' KH of men was ruined by Ansem the Wise's machine, but he still absorbed KH. The KH that wasn't ruined. The KH of worlds. |
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10-28-2009, 02:10 AM
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| | So wait, Wolf Kanno's quoting Maleficent doesn't count as it being a place/location? Or how about the fact that the you go through the door created by the worlds at the end of KHII, a door that quite obviously leads you into KH where Xemnas is? The mere fact of "going to" KH means that it is a location that you can go to. The last fight begins inside KH that has been manipulated by Xemnas. Why can't this be inside KH? Yes, it is a space manipulated by Xemnas who has the power of KH but that does not mean it cannot be inside KH. Furthermore, you earlier compared the merger of Xemnas and KH to that of Nobodies and their owners. And we agree that the door created by the worlds is like the DTD: it leads to KH. So if KH is "inside Xemnas" as it is according to you, and you go through the door to KH, logic indicates that you are not only inside Xemnas but also in KH since the two are one in the same. Not really an abstract definition. Just look it up, what I said is not really outside our conventional usage of the word. I think I should state this clear for you, both me and Wolf are not saying that KH is a world like Neverland, TWTNW, or whatever, we are merely stating that it is a place, a location. If I recall correctly, Wolf had said so himself earlier and now I am saying so too. Oh and if I was data then a computer would be a place to me. :P It had to do with travelling and an earlier point which I cannot find right now. Or it could be that it all was the KH of Men and it was partially destroyed and what remained was absorbed? Nothing says that couldn't be a possibility except for you though there is no concrete proof to say the two were merged in the first place. We all agree that the KH of Worlds is in the Realm of Darkness (ref: KHI). We agree that Xemnas is manipulating the hearts of men to create a KH of Men (ref: 358/2 Days and KHII). Now where does it say that the two have to become one? Also, if the KH of Men is in the Realm of Darkness, which is the logically conclusion since you are saying it is not in TWTNW, then that means Xemnas is pretty fricken strong since he is influencing the hearts to gather and form KH of Men, since their natural inclination is to return to their body or to suspend (according to the Director's Secret Report). Also, there is the problem of basic metaphysical placement if the KH in KHII is not in TWTNW but in the Realm of Darkness yet the Dark Coastline where Riku and Sora are at the end of KHII overlooks the Realm of Darkness. So in one case we have the Realm of Darkness "above" (in the sky) the Realm of Twilight, but in the other they are side by side. Am I the only one who thinks this is inconsistent? |
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10-28-2009, 07:08 AM
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