Eyes on Final Fantasy Forums > The World Is Square...and Enix > Heart (and Body) of the Kingdom of Kingdom Hearts > The Nature of Kingdom Hearts

[Tavrobel]

Originally Posted by Ouch! ^

Nomura, being fairly liberal with information, has already confirmed that Unversed no longer exist by the time of Kingdom Hearts. The reason is unclear.

I don't suppose that every set of time in the KH universe would have different enemies, depending on the Keyblade users/jerks who try to destroy stuff. After all, if all of the enemies from way back when don't appear anymore, and that the enemies of today didn't exist back then, the only possible conclusion is that Jesus did it.

[PuPu]

In KHI, the place was a dark world where the Heartless reside and possibly originate from.

No, what you saw was the Realm of Darkness. The Realm of Darkness is where all Heartless come from, and you were able to see them because you were looking through the Door to Darkness.

In KH2, its still a world of darkness but surprisingly looks like the World That Never Was.

...Kingdom Hearts isn't a world. It's just a giant collection of hearts. The World That Never Was that you see "inside" Kingdom Hearts was created by Xemnas, who absorbed KH's power.

I can see Ansem (Xehanort Apprentice) seeing KH as a world of darkness filled with Heartless

It's not a world of darkness though. You know, Sora even said "Kingdom Hearts is light!"

and I can see Xemnas viewing it as a place of nothingness that all things begin and end as.

No, Xemnas saw it as a power source. Xemnas even says "Hearts are power" and KH was just that, a giant collection of hearts.

since the door wasn't even open to it until the very end

Because Sora and Mickey locked the door to KH in KH1, and they didn't re-open it again until they needed to go in again.

so the world becomes a realm of darkness again despite the Heartless not being present in the world.

Xemnas created another TWTNW because he absorbed KH's power.

In KH1, its a place in the heart of darkness where destroyed worlds go to

You're confusing KH with the Realm of Darkness. When the worlds were "destroyed" they were swallowed by darkness and sent to the Realm of Darkness.

Ansem: This world has been connected. Tied to the Darkness...

whereas in KH2, Order XIII artificially creates the doorway

Organization XIII didn't create a doorway at all. Xemnas absorbed KH's power, and the door that Sora walks through was created by the worlds, as Mickey says.

At any rate, I don't think anyone is trying to argue that Kingdom Hearts is in any way especially deep. It's really not. It only flirts with issues belying any amount of depth. However, I think you're severely exaggerating how confusing it is.

Tell that to the tons of people who don't understand the game.

"HUNH?!? How was Naminé created if Kairi never became a Heartless?!"

Xemnas was willing to do evil in order to accomplish what he thought would end the suffering of those who were like him (ultimately what can be considered a "good" act).

Come on, Tav. I thought you would have known that Xemnas never planned on getting his heart back. He just wanted supreme power.

Here's how Nomura says how you can become whole:

"When heartless are defeated, essentially the owner's hearts are rejoined with their once extinguished body, whichever world it may be on."
-Director's Secret Report XIII

Since his Heartless was already defeated, he literally could have had his heart rejoin his body any time he wanted. In fact, he prevented all Nobodies from being whole again by redirecting all hearts to Kingdom Hearts instead of their original bodies, in order to obtain supreme power.

I'm just baffled as to how anything that has been added since Kingdom Hearts I is so difficult to grasp that it's outright rejection.

It's difficult to grasp because many people don't bother reading stuff like the (Secret) Ansem Reports or the Director's Secret Report XIII.

[Tavrobel]

Originally Posted by PuPu ^

Come on, Tav. I thought you would have known that Xemnas never planned on getting his heart back. He just wanted supreme power.

Here's how Nomura says how you can become whole:

"When heartless are defeated, essentially the owner's hearts are rejoined with their once extinguished body, whichever world it may be on."
-Director's Secret Report XIII

Since his Heartless was already defeated, he literally could have had his heart rejoin his body any time he wanted. In fact, he prevented all Nobodies from being whole again by redirecting all hearts to Kingdom Hearts instead of their original bodies, in order to obtain supreme power.

Not according to KHII's in-game material; I haven't read the extra material anyways, nor have I played 179.

Normally, I'd advocate using out of game material to support arguments, but when it comes to Nomura, my willingness to accept it is 0%. Simply because he sucks at attempting to expand his world by using forcing people to suffer RTFM syndrome.

[PuPu]

Not according to KHII's in-game material; I haven't read the extra material anyways, nor have I played 179.

Speaking of Days, (SPOILER) Xion actually figured out Xemnas' true plans and told Roxas to stop him.

Also, check out what Xemnas had to say in the Secret Reports, Day 358...

"With luck, we can bring Roxas back into our fold, but even if Sora should awaken, as the hero of the Keyblade, he is bound to keep unlocking hearts. If he should come to target us, we need simply subdue him and use his powers ourselves once more. I must become one with Kingdom Hearts. I will become a higher existence. All of my true ambitions begin there. "

Once again, he never planned on getting his heart back, and he duped the rest of the Organization just to get what he wanted, which is to become God. In fact, he actually sent Saix to his death when Saix asked him if he could "end this charade." Apparently, the Organization was also full of traitors besides Marluxia and Larxene, and Xemnas knew this the entire time.

Normally, I'd advocate using out of game material to support arguments, but when it comes to Nomura, my willingness to accept it is 0%.

But that doesn't mean that it isn't true, or that I'm wrong.

Please use Spoiler Tags PuPu, some of us have not played 358/2 ~WK

[Tavrobel]

I haven't played it, so if this is what is stated in 179, then I have no qualms. I just won't know about it.

It's not about you being right. It's just that Nomura is an idiot.

[Wolf Kanno]

I see what you mean about my confusion of the World of Darkness but I feel part of the confusion comes from Ansems' (Xehanort's Heartless) during the whole final battle sequence as he does tend to use DTD and KH interchangeably but this is due to his own misconceptions of the world. I also do feel that Ansem's way of discussing KH implies it is a place or "World" as opposed to simply an object that Heart's go and come from.

Still there are problems here, when we get to KH2 since KH appears in The World That Never Was and the TWTNW is supposedly a realm that exists in the "World's In-Between" whereas KH1 is quite adamant about KH existing in the World of Darkness (in fact, its interesting to note that KH is the only known thing to exist in the World of Darkness at this point in the series). So how can Xemnas have access to it? Even though KH is there, its supposedly in the World of Darkness and your own party has to travel through the DTD to even get to Xemnas' KH (its remade to look like TWTNW, but it is actually Kingdom Hearts from sources I've read and once again implies KH may actually be a World and not an object). There is a logical discrepancy here that throws off the nature of what KH actually is.

[The Summoner of Leviathan]

It is quite possible that there are two different Kingdom Hearts. The KH of the first game can considered, in many ways, the heart of all worlds. The place from which all hearts come and go, the original heart.

In the second game, Kingdom Hearts is created by Xenmas. This project starts in 358/2 Days when both Roxas and (SPOILER) Xion are recruited for that very purpose. Later, Org. XIII uses Sora to continue the task of collecting hearts. It is noted that only the keyblades can harvest hearts.

This theory assumes Xenmas did something to prevent the hearts from going to the KH in the World of Darkness, thus forcing them to gather outside the The World That Never Was. Basically stopping them as they cross from the World of Light to the World of Darkness in the World In-Between (where WTNW is found).

[PuPu]

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno ^

Still there are problems here, when we get to KH2 since KH appears in The World That Never Was and the TWTNW is supposedly a realm that exists in the "World's In-Between" whereas KH1 is quite adamant about KH existing in the World of Darkness

Kingdom Hearts is still in the Realm of Darkness. TWTNW is right on the edge of the Realm of Darkness.

"At present, there are 4 worlds in-between these planes that have appeared.
A) Castle Oblivion
B) Twilight Town
C) Yen Sid's Tower
D) The World That Never Was.

Constructed in this manner, Light < C < B > A > D > Darkness, you can imagine 2 planes with stairs ranging between the worlds."
-Director's Secret Report XIII

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno ^

Even though KH is there, its supposedly in the World of Darkness and your own party has to travel through the DTD to even get to Xemnas' KH

After Sora defeats Xemnas in the dream-Memory Skyscraper, Xemnas absorbs the power of KH. Meaning KH is actually inside him, because he absorbed it. (SPOILER) He "became one with KH," like he said in the Secret Reports of 358/2 Days. The door that SDG travel through leads to KH, which happens to be inside Xemnas, because as Mickey said, the Worlds created that door. The Worlds created the door to KH in KH1 and they do it again in KH2, even though KH was temporarily relocated.

Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan ^

It is quite possible that there are two different Kingdom Hearts. The KH of the first game can considered, in many ways, the heart of all worlds. The place from which all hearts come and go, the original heart.

"Until now in the Kingdom Hearts (hereafter KH) Series, there have been 2 types of "Kingdom Hearts" referring to the Heart of Worlds and the Heart of Men, could you explain the mechanics of this?

Think of the basic setting of KH as "All life has a heart". The heart of a world can be considered the things of nature, for example, the trees in a forest, a sea or river, a flower and so forth, when they all come together to form a world a large heart will come into existence. And concerning the hearts designated to men, all the hearts of humans and animals living in the world are integrated. As for Kingdom Hearts, think of it as if the heart is essentially the culmination of an invisible "Proof of Life"
-Director's Secret Report XIII

Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan ^

In the second game, Kingdom Hearts is created by Xenmas.

Look at it this way. The KH [of worlds] is the thing that you see in KH1. In KH2, Xemnas combined the already-existing KH [of worlds] with the the KH [of men] because he was re-directing all hearts of people that had become Heartless into the KH [of worlds].

Originally Posted by The Summoner of Leviathan ^

This theory assumes Xenmas did something to prevent the hearts from going to the KH in the World of Darkness, thus forcing them to gather outside the The World That Never Was. Basically stopping them as they cross from the World of Light to the World of Darkness in the World In-Between (where WTNW is found).

...No. Xemnas didn't prevent hearts from going to KH. He was the one who made them go to KH. KH is indeed in the Realm of Darkness, and TWTNW just happens to be within spitting distance of darkness.

The hearts of all the Heartless that Sora defeated weren't meant to go to KH. They were meant to return to the bodies of those who had lost their hearts, wherever they may be, as said in the Director's Secret Report XIII.