Eyes on Final Fantasy Forums > The World Is Square...and Enix > Heart (and Body) of the Kingdom of Kingdom Hearts > heartless form

[Goldenboko]

PuPu lays down the law

[Tavrobel]

Originally Posted by PuPu ^

Anti-Form has another huge flaw, besides the fact that you take more damage and can't heal: you can't use magic either. Magic happens to be the best at taking out Heartless/Nobody groups and happens to be the ultimate defense as well (Reflect)

More than Wisdom/Master/Final Form's Thundaga and Firaga finishers? (Okay, maybe not Master because it can't do Magic finishers)

Actually, Wisdom/Master/Final can just completely avoid damage by using Reflect AND deal damage at the same time. There's no way running around in Anti-Form will cause you to take less damage than Reflect, which basically negates almost every attack in the game (except a few such as Descend Heartless Angel). Also, I thought Final Form could deal the most damage by Firaga spamming?

Easier said than done, especially since some enemies IMMEDIATELY counter-attack as soon as you hit them with your finisher before you get a chance to escape. Also, I find it is really hard to avoid Xigbar and his lasers, especially when he gets down to his last 1.5 bars of health.

There's also the fact that Anti-Form disables Reaction Commands, which appear in just about every boss battle in the game and can give you a huge advantage in battle (excluding a few, such as Xigbar's Warp Snipe and Luxord's Begin Game if you are bad at it) by dealing lots of damage to the enemy, weakening them, stopping their attacks, etc. In fact, they are even required to win certain battles (ex: Grim Reaper). Really, I'd hate to fight enemies such as Grim Reaper or Xaldin without Reaction Commands.

Not a problem if you don't get hit. I never said anything about Magic, but this reminds me of our arguments way back in the day.

"omg magic is useless"
"no it isnt"
"stop sucking at videogames"
"it's my style"
"well you sux"
"ur arrogant"
"so?"
"magic isnt useless"
"not unless you hit the x button fast enough"

I've matured. I've decided that Magic is useless until after I need it, and yet have no way to obtain it. I've never been a fan of game-breaking. Ask Mullet. He'll tell you all about DII.

Actually, yes, it is the largest AoE. Have you ever actually tried using them instead of looking at the graphics? The only one that comes close is Thundaga, but since it's multiple bolts applied individually, I can't say that as an attack, Thundaga has the largest AoE since it just uses the same as a single cast of the spell for multiple instances. Firaga is limited by range, and since half of it is used up by Sora, it doesn't have much of an AoE at all (no arguments against convenience, though).

Final doesn't have a finisher, either for most Magics; the (presumably) third cast has the same animation and damage as the others do (except Blizzard). And for the issue of sustained damage? Not bloody likely. You're going to run out of MP sooner or later. Anti-Form is best played with the prevention game; if the enemy is always in hit recovery, they can't initiate those attacks. Additionally, Reflect can be interrupted as much as Anti-Form's attacks can. I must admit it is a playstyle quirk of mine. But I don't suck at video games.

Can't respond much to your Reactions argument but I never saw this as a flaw. It can still take down a boss based on HP only, and deals the most damage, which easily makes up for the damage dealt by most Reactions. Even if you did need a Reaction to complete the fight, it would take you just as long in any one of the Forms to activate it or fight your way to the enemy without doing something stupid. 90-some HP is more than you think, and 120 is just plain broken. As for Xigbar, people still haven't learned how to run in a circle? That's the only thing realistic about this game in the first place.

No fair using Reflect-spam as an argument. That's obtainable without a Form, and we are dealing with what is the best Form, not whatever the designers happened to decide should break the game.

As for the person who said something about the Darkness not being bad, there's more than one way that KHII undoes what CoM tried to do to the characters. I didn't see it when I played through the first time in KHII, but KHII often tramples over character development in CoM. Tragic, truly.

PuPu, why can't you ever let me have my fun? It's like you're that guy at concerts shouting "stop having fun!" It's not my fault that people listen to me.

[Jessweeee♪]

It's so fun to run around in Anti-Form

[Goldenboko]

Originally Posted by Tavrobel ^

PuPu, why can't you ever let me have my fun? It's like you're that guy at concerts shouting "stop having fun!" It's not my fault that people listen to me.

From 4 years of hanging out with him Tav, he is that guy, get used to it. :P

[Darkswordofchaos]

Lol this has turned into a very heated debate but every one is wrong the best form is anti master final form duhhh

[PuPu]

Not a problem if you don't get hit. I never said anything about Magic, but this reminds me of our arguments way back in the day.

"omg magic is useless"
"no it isnt"
"stop sucking at videogames"
"it's my style"
"well you sux"
"ur arrogant"
"so?"
"magic isnt useless"
"not unless you hit the x button fast enough"

I've matured. I've decided that Magic is useless until after I need it, and yet have no way to obtain it. I've never been a fan of game-breaking. Ask Mullet. He'll tell you all about DII.

Oh yeah, I remember these too. But I think it was SeedRankLou who argued this with you more than I did.

Actually, yes, it is the largest AoE. Have you ever actually tried using them instead of looking at the graphics? The only one that comes close is Thundaga, but since it's multiple bolts applied individually, I can't say that as an attack, Thundaga has the largest AoE since it just uses the same as a single cast of the spell for multiple instances. Firaga is limited by range, and since half of it is used up by Sora, it doesn't have much of an AoE at all (no arguments against convenience, though).

Well, yes I have used them. I just think it seems that when the attacks are used, the enemies die within a similar radius away from Sora with all of those attacks. But I guess I can't really prove this.

Final doesn't have a finisher, either for most Magics; the (presumably) third cast has the same animation and damage as the others do (except Blizzard).

Wait, the finisher does the SAME damage as the rest? Seriously? After all, I just went by the fact that regular Sora's Magic finishers look all the same as well. Wait, do regular Sora's Magic finishers also do the same damage as the regular magic?

And for the issue of sustained damage? Not bloody likely. You're going to run out of MP sooner or later. Anti-Form is best played with the prevention game; if the enemy is always in hit recovery, they can't initiate those attacks. Additionally, Reflect can be interrupted as much as Anti-Form's attacks can.

Alright, you got me there.

But I don't suck at video games.

Obviously. You're way better than anybody I know at KH.
(especially the poster right after my previous post )

Can't respond much to your Reactions argument but I never saw this as a flaw. It can still take down a boss based on HP only, and deals the most damage, which easily makes up for the damage dealt by most Reactions. Even if you did need a Reaction to complete the fight, it would take you just as long in any one of the Forms to activate it or fight your way to the enemy without doing something stupid.

I mostly agree, but there is one important exception: how do you even DAMAGE Xaldin if you can't get past Aero without using Learn? Anti-Form's attacks are all physical and will simply cause you bounce right off of Aero. At least with the other forms, they can use magic to pierce Aero.

As for Xigbar, people still haven't learned how to run in a circle? That's the only thing realistic about this game in the first place.

Are you kidding? That's the easy part. I'm talking about the part where says "Hrargh! Take This!" and shoots two giant white lasers that you can use Warp Snipe on. You've got those two white lasers bouncing off the walls and ceiling, AND him shooting at you with his regular attacks, and I just can't follow the white lasers' movements enough to completely avoid them consistently.

No fair using Reflect-spam as an argument. That's obtainable without a Form, and we are dealing with what is the best Form, not whatever the designers happened to decide should break the game.

But...it's the fact that you CAN'T USE IT in Anti-Form and the fact that you CAN USE IT in three other forms that give those three an advantage over Anti-Form. Even though this isn't KH2FM, Limit Form is imo the best, by the way.

PuPu, why can't you ever let me have my fun? It's like you're that guy at concerts shouting "stop having fun!" It's not my fault that people listen to me.

Hey come on, you have your fun more than anyone else in the KH forums. And you've killed my fun, and tons of other people's fun on the KH forums, way more than I, or anybody else, has ever done to you.
It's not my fault I don't listen to you, is it?

From 4 years of hanging out with him Tav, he is that guy, get used to it. :P

Only to you.

[Tavrobel]

Originally Posted by PuPu ^

Oh yeah, I remember these too. But I think it was SeedRankLou who argued this with you more than I did.

Yeah, him, too. Although, I always wondered why. He's seen me play Diablo II, so my methods and tactics should be no surprise.

Originally Posted by PuPu ^

Well, yes I have used them. I just think it seems that when the attacks are used, the enemies die within a similar radius away from Sora with all of those attacks. But I guess I can't really prove this.

The Anti-Form aerial finisher is the largest single sustained attack in the game. If you want to talk about effective range, Thundaga in Final is the largest, but seeing as how Final doesn't actually ever improve the spell, it only gives you more of it. Maybe that in itself is its own upgrade.

Originally Posted by PuPu ^

Wait, the finisher does the SAME damage as the rest? Seriously? After all, I just went by the fact that regular Sora's Magic finishers look all the same as well. Wait, do regular Sora's Magic finishers also do the same damage as the regular magic?

Most of them do. Blizzard is the exception in Final Form, where he basically upgrades his Keyblades to frozen machine guns. Final Form, as far as I know, don't actually do more damage, they only create more instances of the spell.

Originally Posted by PuPu ^

I mostly agree, but there is one important exception: how do you even DAMAGE Xaldin if you can't get past Aero without using Learn? Anti-Form's attacks are all physical and will simply cause you bounce right off of Aero. At least with the other forms, they can use magic to pierce Aero.

It wears off, but it is difficult to break. The only solution is to abuse one of the Forms with an attack that causes temporary invulnerability (so that the ticks of Aero don't break the animation). An example of this is Wisdom's Quick Run. Half of Final Form's attacks have invulnerability, as well, but is not available just quite yet.

Originally Posted by PuPu ^

Are you kidding? That's the easy part. I'm talking about the part where says "Hrargh! Take This!" and shoots two giant white lasers that you can use Warp Snipe on. You've got those two white lasers bouncing off the walls and ceiling, AND him shooting at you with his regular attacks, and I just can't follow the white lasers' movements enough to completely avoid them consistently.

I've yet to do anything but run.

Originally Posted by PuPu ^

But...it's the fact that you CAN'T USE IT in Anti-Form and the fact that you CAN USE IT in three other forms that give those three an advantage over Anti-Form. Even though this isn't KH2FM, Limit Form is imo the best, by the way.

Only for the cool factor. For this, I take the same stance as I do for FFX NTSC and FFX PAL/Int.

Originally Posted by PuPu ^

Hey come on, you have your fun more than anyone else in the KH forums. And you've killed my fun, and tons of other people's fun on the KH forums, way more than I, or anybody else, has ever done to you.
It's not my fault I don't listen to you, is it?

Yes, it is. You must rectify this mistake. Expect an unsigned letter of penance soon.