Eyes on Final Fantasy Forums > Final Fantasy: The Quickening > Final Fantasy VIII > Ultimecia's Parting Words

[jammi567]

And the mome rath Ryushikaze outgrabe:

And the mome rath jammi567 outgrabe:

what Pharoh Amon Khan III is very true. You're an annoying bastard with no original ideas. all you do is whine and complain, and make life a misery for the rest of us.

And that kind of posts, good child, are why these threads get closed. Care to apologize before a Mod wanders in?

sorry. it won't happen again, i promise. i was just angry at something else, and you're the one i took it out on.

[Ryushikaze]

And the mome rath MJN SEIFER outgrabe:

And the mome rath Ryushikaze outgrabe:

Fine. Now prove that Squall died.

What's that? You CAN'T! SHOCK OF SHOCKS!

There is no evidence that Squall died.

And no, MJN, it is NOT hinted, and if you think it is, show me the evidence.

Lying motion less and not breathing = DEAD

it isn't a hint, it flat out obvious!

Squall is lying motionless because he just passed out from exhaustion. Though I'm curious how you determined he wasn't breathing, given the short time he is focused on after his fall.

And the mome rath Pharoh Amon Khan III outgrabe:

How 'bout this?

How about we discuss these varied interpretations. Instead of stating someone is infailiably wrong... We can try to see from each other's perspective...

People have tried before. It tends to wind up even more flametastic. But sure, let's give it a spin, if you'll see my perspective about empirical backing.

Now, the Squall dies and is revived by Rinoa version seems a likely occurance.

Why? Well, with 'Love' there is often 'Tragedy' involved in a 'Love Story'... which I really did not feel in this story, but, I digress.

Not so much.There are two basic love story archetypes, tragic and comedic. Tragic romances do usually involve a tragedy yes, but comic ones- well, good comic ones- simply have adversity. They're also marked by tragedy ending poorly, and comedy ending well. FF8 is a comedy in this regard.
Also, Squall biting it and coming back also does not seem to follow the themes of death in FF. While there are occasionally some 'cheats', the overwhelming majority of the dead in FF do not come back. The major exceptions are basically ghosts, ghosts with physical presence, and a boy who didn't technically die the first time, but no real examples of both revived body and 'soul' at once.

In a Time Compressed World, a decaying one at that, no one can exist.

Well, the world wasn't completely compressed, though I don't see how it reverting to standard is relevant. In fact, shouldn't the unravelling of compression cause rapidly recovery of existence?

I won't go into the hallucinations/memories/Ultimecia's Message 'theories' for now, but at any rate... It seems that Squall IS in the Flower Field as he promised but is not in time-sync with Rinoa...

As the Time Compressed World decays, he dies, and Rinoa, as it seems to be demonstrated often, unconciously uses her Sorceress Power to 'find' Squall right behind her in the TC version of the flower field.

Now seeing that Ultimecia could use Edea to bring stone statues to 'life' and various other phenomena, it does not seem too far fetched that she would be able to simutaneously bring herself and Squall OUT of the Decaying Time Compressed World (Flower Field) and bring Squall back to life.

Well, animation and restoring life are technically different powers, and one does not necessarily mean the other. And if sorceress's had life power, one wonders why Ulti could not set up a spell to execute as she died to revive herself if it was so easy (OTOH, she could just be insane and egomaniacal). Of course, discussing animation v ressurection is giving me images of Zombie Squall (braiiiiiiiins.... whateverrrrrr....), so let's get off that mind track for now. Now, I would not doubt Rinoa brought Squall back (the involvement of her power as opposed to just connecting with the poor boy is questionable, though)

It may even be that Squall, trapped in the Decaying Time Compression, had 'ceased to exist' and by Rinoa bringing him 'back' he... 'existed'.

I don't follow. When time compression decays, it pours back into its own place in time, so while Squall may be misplaced, it would not seem he stops existing any more than any other time traveller.

I guess that would give some merit to Laguna's 'speech' of love and friendship to bind you back to the world you came from...

Yeah... I like that...

It is a rather nice sentiment, though I don't really see why Squall needs to die for it.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Ah, there it is... See, I'm not saying that Squall needs to die. I'm saying that some people interpet it that way. And that's okay, because it's reasonable they would see it that way. Even those that say he 'fainted' saw it the first time they played the game as he was dead... The entire mood of the this scene portrays utter sadness and we are not assured the exact fate of Squall until the final scene. This is why there is speculation. Let's take a look. You'll also note in the clip it's questionable that is Rinoa talking to Squall, or just gone into the 'denial stage' of mourning. But those questions are soon resolved... ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mwqgUJeQNs


Upon seeing this scene for the first time, one assumes that Squall is dead by the portral of the events and Rinoa's expressions.

The way she hugs him closely is what makes one believe that she is so heart-broken.

And so, it goes that he either fainted and she realized she thought too soon, OR the Power of the Sorceress Rinoa brings them both out of Time Compression Decay and Squall alive again.

It can go either way. I just don't see the arguement that if someone thinks Squall died is a problem.

The only thing you're talking about is the final scene where he is clearly alive. What WE'RE focusing on it the initial scene when Rinoa finds him. Dead or alive, fainted, whatever...

I personally think either/all view(s) is/are acceptable for in the final scene he IS standing with Rinoa.

Some think that if Rinoa is Utilmecia that the ending with them standing together was the "Everlasting Moment" Ultimecia-Rinoa was trying to achieve...

Again, either way I personally find acceptable. There's no need to argue simply because someone sees it differently. The only thing that is evident is...

THE END

[Ryushikaze]

And the mome rath Pharoh Amon Khan III outgrabe:

Ah, there it is... See, I'm not saying that Squall needs to die. I'm saying that some people interpet it that way. And that's okay, because it's reasonable they would see it that way.

It's reasonable that they jump to that conclusion. It is not reasonable that they try and make their assumption, their positive assertion, into fact.

Even those that say he 'fainted' saw it the first time they played the game as he was dead...

Gonna have to kibosh that and tell you that when I saw it, I thought he was at most comatose, and was just passed out from sheer exhaustion.

The entire mood of the this scene portrays utter sadness and we are not assured the exact fate of Squall until the final scene. This is why there is speculation. Let's take a look. You'll also note in the clip it's questionable that is Rinoa talking to Squall, or just gone into the 'denial stage' of mourning. But those questions are soon resolved... ;D

If you're talking about the "Squall was a hallucination" argument, oi. That's a grand deciever argument, and those fail by default, I'm afraid. It makes for decent fanfiction, but as an attempt to unravel the truth, it's rather useless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mwqgUJeQNs


Upon seeing this scene for the first time, one assumes that Squall is dead by the portral of the events and Rinoa's expressions.

The way she hugs him closely is what makes one believe that she is so heart-broken.

Actually, when I saw her hugging, I was reminded of the tight embracing of one who one has just recovered something very dear to them, like my mother once did after I was climbing a tree and the branch I was on broke, and I managed to get out of the situation unharmed.

And so, it goes that he either fainted and she realized she thought too soon, OR the Power of the Sorceress Rinoa brings them both out of Time Compression Decay and Squall alive again.

And the former is far more parsimonious.

It can go either way. I just don't see the arguement that if someone thinks Squall died is a problem.

It's not so much a problem as it is bad in the reductionalist sense, since it adds extra unsupported terms to the explanation of the scene.

The only thing you're talking about is the final scene where he is clearly alive. What WE'RE focusing on it the initial scene when Rinoa finds him. Dead or alive, fainted, whatever...

No, I was focused on the scene in question from the start.

I personally think either/all view(s) is/are acceptable for in the final scene he IS standing with Rinoa.

So Squall is a Pupu? Christmas will be so pleased! Seriously though, not all views are equal, though it can often be hard to tell why they are not. Not all of them can be as blatant as "so, how did they get back to Garden after the end of the game?" "Teleportation, LOL!".

Some think that if Rinoa is Utilmecia that the ending with them standing together was the "Everlasting Moment" Ultimecia-Rinoa was trying to achieve...

Then Ulti is either the stupidest or most intelligent insane genius I've ever met.

Again, either way I personally find acceptable. There's no need to argue simply because someone sees it differently. The only thing that is evident is...

THE END

It's not really about seeing it differently, it's about supporting your view with empirical backing. And, as a reductionalist, shaving away all but the simplest viable explanation.

[jammi567]

i agree with you there (Actually, when I saw her hugging, I was reminded of the tight embracing of one who one has just recovered something very dear to them). but it also looks like she's crying because she's lost him (i'm well aware of the ending after the credits).

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

And the mome rath Ryushikaze outgrabe:

It's reasonable that they jump to that conclusion. It is not reasonable that they try and make their assumption, their positive assertion, into fact.

But... Isn't that what you're doing? Why can't people just share POVs instead of saying their's is 'what actually happened' or 'your POV is ridiculous' compared to mine. As you said, it's reasonable, but BOTH are reasonable. There's no need to reasonable arguement here accept intolerance. Remember how we discussed "Eden"?

Gonna have to kibosh that and tell you that when I saw it, I thought he was at most comatose, and was just passed out from sheer exhaustion.

Again, that's just YOUR secular POV on the scene. Others have theirs. Your view is NOT superior to those that are different and does not give you the right to say other views are wrong or put a "Kibosh" on anything. You have no more supporting evidence than they do for this scene in a fantasy. There are those who will say they thought he was 'dead' versus 'fainted'. It doesn't matter. There's no need for opposition.

If you're talking about the "Squall was a hallucination" argument, oi. That's a grand deciever argument, and those fail by default, I'm afraid. It makes for decent fanfiction, but as an attempt to unravel the truth, it's rather useless.

I don't even want to get into that, but that's why I think it's time we let bygone's be bygone's about this. Some say hallucination, some say Time Compression Unravelling, some say Squall trying to find something to hang onto to escape Time Compression... I find that none are superior to the other only 'favorable'. And for some reason because people have different views of the interpretation of this event they argure or 'debate' with others that disagree with their favorable conclusion. It's gotta stop. Let them see/be what they see/be.


[quote]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mwqgUJeQNs

Actually, when I saw her hugging, I was reminded of the tight embracing of one who one has just recovered something very dear to them, like my mother once did after I was climbing a tree and the branch I was on broke, and I managed to get out of the situation unharmed.

AGAIN, that's just YOU and so many others that have different interpretations. C'mon, Ryu, you know exactly what I meant when I made that statement, so now you're just lumping yourself against a poor generalization I made; but you know exactly what I meant. Not ALL see it the same way. They don't see it the same as you or me! But there's no reason to go about cutting up people's statements with quotes just ot outright REJECT their ideals. And that's what still all you're doing. You're not posting original statements, just direct rejection responses to parts of a post.

As you see, this is the first in a long time I've done the "Quote Qwazy" with you because I find it ridiculous and the discssion gets convoluted.
Bottomline: I've tried to summerize the views of all people that I've read that have different views and give fair view point to their reasons why.

I would appreciate it if you were to just make a post explaining your view on the scene; we already know that you don't agree with whatever anyone else says, but we DON'T know what you DO agree with... We don't know your view point.

And, I'm asking you try to refrain for the over-usage of over-priced words such as "parsimonious" and "Occam's Razor"... I'm sure there's some other layman's terms you can use that others will understand. I know you're gonna say that "these are proper terms for a debate". But...

1. This is NOT a 'debate; this is a disucssion.

2. You can not have a discussion if we're not speaking the same language.

And so, it goes that he either fainted and she realized she thought too soon, OR the Power of the Sorceress Rinoa brings them both out of Time Compression Decay and Squall alive again.

And the former is far more parsimonious.

See? There you go again. You're only speaking in favor of the interpretation of your choice and claiming it more acceptable than any other. How can you say that? I mean, really, You don't support it with a view point other than "It's what the majority of everyone else believes as well so there! No shut up with your ridiculous theories."

For me, that's like a Neo-Con saying that racism doesn't exist or things were much better back in the 'old days'. It's narrow-minded.

It's not so much a problem as it is bad in the reductionalist sense, since it adds extra unsupported terms to the explanation of the scene.

I don't see how breaking down the scene is going to 'add' anything. It's simple, he fainted or died, died and came back to life, whatever... It's fantasy; it's possible. Why can't people leave it at that? It's fantasy stop argueing amongst each other about how it ends.

Tomato/Tamato; Sky-Blue/ Sea-Green; Purple/Violet; Taste Great/Less Filling.

We're all color-blind and we gotta live with that. Some of just don't see all the same colors of the rainbow/spectrum.

No, I was focused on the scene in question from the start.

It doesn't quite seem like it... More like you're constantly referring to "Squall Stands With Rinoa" scene. We know this... It's just questionable that as he's lying there he seems to have died... or fainted. Either or. This is why it's most likely best if you POST instead of "add reply"/"quote"...

So Squall is a Pupu? Christmas will be so pleased! Seriously though, not all views are equal, though it can often be hard to tell why they are not. Not all of them can be as blatant as "so, how did they get back to Garden after the end of the game?" "Teleportation, LOL!".

Now you're just being ridiculous, and just so Christmas will not 'Deck My... uh,...Halls' I'll agree with that Pupu statement.

I see your reason for this, but I don't understand... Why does it seem so wrong that people have a different POV when their's nothing to support either side?

And I know you mean to use the statement "It's safe to assume that Balamb Garden swooped by and picked them up." as a reference to your point of how 'ridiculous' these parsimonious and unfounded claims are made... Here comes the sarcasm: "There's no evidence that Balamb Garden picked them up so it's much have been teleoportation". C'mon, Ryu, you know exactly what I mean. I'm just saying why are people argueing that their version is better than their version. Oy!

Then Ulti is either the stupidest or most intelligent insane genius I've ever met.

No, that would be Dr. Odine... G.W. Bush running second... Laguna is dead last.

It's not really about seeing it differently, it's about supporting your view with empirical backing. And, as a reductionalist, shaving away all but the simplest viable explanation.

You do realize you're talking about fantasy, right? I don't see the point of an arguement here...

Let's take the movie "Crank" for example. Guy, does some amazing things and survives impossible odds... But even at the end some people left the theatre claiming that *SPOILER* that he lived.

If you've seen the movie... Well, you can see why I wasn't gonna support this idea... I don't think he lived... But... Let them believe what they wanna. They didn't want their hero to die. They wanted their happy ending... I'm thinking: "... Ah, let 'em eat cake."

An even strong example was Future Esthar... His theories were extremely... uh... different, but when he wasn't explaining himself I asked him to... I never outright rejected his statements. I asked him to explain and refer to his source/inspiration so we can all see where he was coming from... When he couldn't do that... Well... Let 'em eat cake.

I mean, let this guy post whatever he wants, no matter how strange it is... Something might come out of it. I just want to get his POV, no argue with him.

And that's what I think everyone should do... It's just fantasy. Have fun with it.

Please post instead of reply/quote. I wanna understand where you're coming from perspective wise...

[MJN SEIFER]

Squall is lying motionless because he just passed out from exhaustion. Though I'm curious how you determined he wasn't breathing, given the short time he is focused on after his fall.

Rinoa holds him for a while and we can see clearly that he is not breathing and he is focuses very steadily.

Further more he didn't "pass out fro exhaustion" he was effected by Time Compression.

Anyone else want to motion this to be a thread of it's own so we can get back on topic?

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

And the mome rath Ryushikaze outgrabe:

And the mome rath Pharoh Amon Khan III outgrabe:

Ah, there it is... See, I'm not saying that Squall needs to die. I'm saying that some people interpet it that way. And that's okay, because it's reasonable they would see it that way.

It's reasonable that they jump to that conclusion. It is not reasonable that they try and make their assumption, their positive assertion, into fact.

Even those that say he 'fainted' saw it the first time they played the game as he was dead...

Gonna have to kibosh that and tell you that when I saw it, I thought he was at most comatose, and was just passed out from sheer exhaustion.

The entire mood of the this scene portrays utter sadness and we are not assured the exact fate of Squall until the final scene. This is why there is speculation. Let's take a look. You'll also note in the clip it's questionable that is Rinoa talking to Squall, or just gone into the 'denial stage' of mourning. But those questions are soon resolved... ;D

If you're talking about the "Squall was a hallucination" argument, oi. That's a grand deciever argument, and those fail by default, I'm afraid. It makes for decent fanfiction, but as an attempt to unravel the truth, it's rather useless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mwqgUJeQNs


Upon seeing this scene for the first time, one assumes that Squall is dead by the portral of the events and Rinoa's expressions.

The way she hugs him closely is what makes one believe that she is so heart-broken.

Actually, when I saw her hugging, I was reminded of the tight embracing of one who one has just recovered something very dear to them, like my mother once did after I was climbing a tree and the branch I was on broke, and I managed to get out of the situation unharmed.

And so, it goes that he either fainted and she realized she thought too soon, OR the Power of the Sorceress Rinoa brings them both out of Time Compression Decay and Squall alive again.

And the former is far more parsimonious.

It can go either way. I just don't see the arguement that if someone thinks Squall died is a problem.

It's not so much a problem as it is bad in the reductionalist sense, since it adds extra unsupported terms to the explanation of the scene.

The only thing you're talking about is the final scene where he is clearly alive. What WE'RE focusing on it the initial scene when Rinoa finds him. Dead or alive, fainted, whatever...

No, I was focused on the scene in question from the start.

I personally think either/all view(s) is/are acceptable for in the final scene he IS standing with Rinoa.

So Squall is a Pupu? Christmas will be so pleased! Seriously though, not all views are equal, though it can often be hard to tell why they are not. Not all of them can be as blatant as "so, how did they get back to Garden after the end of the game?" "Teleportation, LOL!".

Some think that if Rinoa is Utilmecia that the ending with them standing together was the "Everlasting Moment" Ultimecia-Rinoa was trying to achieve...

Then Ulti is either the stupidest or most intelligent insane genius I've ever met.

Again, either way I personally find acceptable. There's no need to argue simply because someone sees it differently. The only thing that is evident is...

THE END

It's not really about seeing it differently, it's about supporting your view with empirical backing. And, as a reductionalist, shaving away all but the simplest viable explanation.

And the mome rath MJN SEIFER outgrabe:

Squall is lying motionless because he just passed out from exhaustion. Though I'm curious how you determined he wasn't breathing, given the short time he is focused on after his fall.

Rinoa holds him for a while and we can see clearly that he is not breathing and he is focuses very steadily.

Further more he didn't "pass out fro exhaustion" he was effected by Time Compression.

Anyone else want to motion this to be a thread of it's own so we can get back on topic?

Yeah, move it. BUT... Statement's like 'clearly' that's just shoving down people throats again. I'm not picking sides, I just want people stop 'comparing' notes instead of 'sharing' notes...