Eyes on Final Fantasy Forums > Final Fantasy: The Quickening > Final Fantasy VIII > explanations. *serious spoilers. do not read uless you hae completed the game.*

[Ryushikaze]

Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III ^

What's rational about this confusing ending. What's rational about "Time Compression" when no one actually agrees or understands it is; only to be bogged down by the next endless unproven 'theory'.

People not understanding something does not make it irrational. People did not understand the way, say lightning worked, this does not make lightning irrational. It may make their explanations irrational, but not the event itself.

The fact of the matter is, that there is no conclusive understanding of how the ending ended, but I really just want to understand... Why is the R=U debated, instead of discussed? Why is it hated more than any other interpetation? Is it because people just don't want to see it that way?

You've been told the reasons why several times. Don't pretend you haven't.

I'm still working on my 'essay' but I'm trying to word it so that people understand I'm not "PROVE" anything... Just stating how I see the R=U is as 'plausiable' as anything else. I also want to try to prevent from getting trashed and burned like I did so many years ago.

Except you'll be trying to prove how R=U is plausible. You'll never be able to escape peer review, PAK.

You the flames... It was like I spouted blashphemy. And that's what I want to undestand why is this R=U trashed in such a fashion if it is just fantasy? I'm hoping to find something with the responses.

Because 'fantasy' doesn't mean 'anything goes'. Even fantasy can be rationally scrutinized.

Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III ^

Originally Posted by Jimmy Dark Aeons Slayer ^

It´s the second time i said it but that was the ring Squall gave to Rinoa so it can only be Rinoa!

But that doesn´t mean she died...ohhhh no sir it only shows one of the possible alternative futures and what would happen if Squall didn´t safe Rinoa.

And this is a 'fact'? Not a point of view?

That it does not mean she died is fact. That it has a meaning is a point of view. Even this point of view must be supported with evidence or reasoning.

The helmut is unclear on whether that is Rinoa or no. I think it could be either Squall or Rinoa, but the question remains... That didn't happen, or did it? How many licks does take to get to center of a tootie pop? :p (yeah, I know someone claims to have answered that but... :p)

The helmet is not unclear at all.Two rings, Rinoa's rings, are visible. Arguing that it is anyone else is to argue against the evidence. Same as with 'did it happen' Rinoa is still alive. Arguing that she died is against the evidence.

In this case, it's more to the liking of "Which came first: The chicken or the egg? The helmut exploding or no? The world may never know...

We have no reason to think the helmet breaking ever occurred outside of Squall's fevered mind.

Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III ^

I'm beginning to think you're right Sir Bahamut. I think that Squall may have died the time Sorceress Edea struck him down with Blizzara. He was 'revived' ans sustained throughout the story since that time. He is then revived by Sorceress Rinoa at the end apparently. But could that have been a 'hallucination'? I don't think it was.

Evidence in favor of Squall dying, ever?
And where did SB ever front that interpretation?

[boys from the dwarf]

read my last post. that gives some hints of squall dieing. it cant be proved really but like i said. its the way rinoa acts when she see's him. she may not of reacted the same way if she was alive. and SB i meant he died then was revided. he cant have died permantently because you see him in the ending sequence of the credits.

[jammi567]

Originally Posted by boys from the dwarf ^

. he cant have died permantently because you see him in the ending sequence of the credits.

damm, that's what i was going to say.

[Sir Bahamut]

Originally Posted by boys from the dwarf

and SB i meant he died then was revided. he cant have died permantently because you see him in the ending sequence of the credits.

Ok, well that's fine. It makes no difference to the story if you believe he died or merely passed out anyway, so I have no "problems" with that statement.

By the way, I have to echo Ruy; when did I ever front Squall's death by Edea? I think that although it may be an interesting idea, it has no reasonable basis whatsoever.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

WHY can't Rinoa possibly be Ultimecia? Everyone says that there is no 'evidence' in the game, but it is suggestive in the ending. Sure Selphie, Irvine and the gang get their shine, but Rinoa's image is repeated at the end and no one else except Ultimecia, making it highly suggestive. Also, for the sake of the arguement "It not in the game" or there's no evidence"... There are several ways of seeing the ending.

There is the "Happy Ending" or the possiblity that Rinoa will/could become Ultimecia. For at the end of the game, Ultimecia still exists in the future and because of the Fated Children and Ellone, Ultimecia possesses the entire Succession of Witches save for Rinoa; and Edea who would be the Fated Successor of Ultimecia thus creating the "Loop of Fate".

Whether Rinoa becomes Ultimeica or not, the Fate of the Fated Children was to be the Fated Safe-Guard that ensured the defeat of the Ultimate Sorceress: Ultimecia.

Now, as far as 'in the game' or 'evidence' goes, at the end of the game, Ultimecia still exists in the future and can possess any Sorceress she so chooses, for she has (technically) already done so. Also, as the game shows, Sorceress Rinoa is the final Sorceress, there are no other Sorceresses in the game after the ending.

And as the arguements started so is there the mystery of 'what happens' now? Will Rinoa become Ultimecia?

Someone told me that it didn't matter WHO Rinoa's successor would be, but that it 'did'/'will' happen. It DOES matter because we have no other assurance of who that will be or if there is a successor at all. And there is the 'evidence' or lack there of... Of the 'possibility'. The only reason why it is rejected is because most do not want to see anything past the "Happy Ending"...

I personally don't believe that Sorceresses are 'immortal' but believe it or not kiddles, people DO live multiple generations. And as we see 'in the game' Edea Kramer succeeds Sorceress Ultimecia when she is around the age of 30 years old, and 15-18 years later she has not, cosmetically aged a day. Apparently, the Sorceress Power has the ability to affect the human physiology. (Elongated hair going to short, facial scars, tattooes, horns, and wings, ect). The ambiguity of what is defined as 'generations' or how many generations leaves the future untold as it should be for time travellers, otherwise they would go about trying to change 'fate' as Ultimecia did, but ultimately failed.

So... I don't see any reason 'Why Rinoa could become Ultimecia'.

Thank you... and good night.

[Sir Bahamut]

WHY can't Rinoa possibly be Ultimecia? Everyone says that there is no 'evidence' in the game, but it is suggestive in the ending. Sure Selphie, Irvine and the gang get their shine, but Rinoa's image is repeated at the end and no one else except Ultimecia, making it highly suggestive.

Look again. Edea flashes over Rinoa's face before Ultimecia, and after Ultimecia every major character flashes on the screen in turn and order. Further, this is TC; everything is weird and little of it makes any sense at all, so it's hardly rational to pick out one tiny little thing which isn't even a unique thing and claim that it's somehow extremely special and indicative of a greater truth.

So considering that it's TC and it's NOT just Ultimecia, it is NOT highly suggestive of anything.

Now, as far as 'in the game' or 'evidence' goes, at the end of the game, Ultimecia still exists in the future and can possess any Sorceress she so chooses, for she has (technically) already done so. Also, as the game shows, Sorceress Rinoa is the final Sorceress, there are no other Sorceresses in the game after the ending.

And as the arguements started so is there the mystery of 'what happens' now? Will Rinoa become Ultimecia?

Someone told me that it didn't matter WHO Rinoa's successor would be, but that it 'did'/'will' happen. It DOES matter because we have no other assurance of who that will be or if there is a successor at all. And there is the 'evidence' or lack there of... Of the 'possibility'.

That's all nice, but you didn't actually state any ingame evidence at all in that entire bulk of text. The fact that we do not know what will happen after the game does not in any way make R=U a valid theory.

The only reason why it is rejected is because most do not want to see anything past the "Happy Ending"...

No, it's rejected because people like yourself talk of evidence without actually providing any. People will believe what the game shows them, namely the "Happy Ending" unless you give them a very good reason as to why they should consider something different. You have not done so yet, and neither have any other R=U supporters.

I personally don't believe that Sorceresses are 'immortal' but believe it or not kiddles, people DO live multiple generations. And as we see 'in the game' Edea Kramer succeeds Sorceress Ultimecia when she is around the age of 30 years old, and 15-18 years later she has not, cosmetically aged a day. Apparently, the Sorceress Power has the ability to affect the human physiology. (Elongated hair going to short, facial scars, tattooes, horns, and wings, ect). The ambiguity of what is defined as 'generations' or how many generations leaves the future untold as it should be for time travellers, otherwise they would go about trying to change 'fate' as Ultimecia did, but ultimately failed.

There's no ambiguity. A generation can be anything between 20-30 years; let's assume 20. Now, "many" may be ambiguous, but in order to allow Rinoa to age naturally to Ultimecia, we'd have to interpret many as no more than 4 (and that'd make Rinoa about 98 years old mind you), which hardly seems reasonable.

Why not? Because besides the fact that entire point of using TC to travel to the future is to access Ultimecia who clearly lives far into the future, Laguna explicitly states that Ultimecia lives in a future where the party can technically speaking not exist. That is, they should all be dead by then.

But even if we ignore that, and seriously consider "many" as 4 generations, the Ultimecia we see should be old and haggard and frail. No matter how many powers she has, or to what great extent a sorceress can alter their appearances, the fact is that sorceress age like regular human beings, and so at age 98 they should be just about ready to keel over simply from old age. Ultimecia is clearly NOT in such a state.

The ONLY way for R=U to even be technically speaking possible in the first place is if you assume something along the lines of Rinoa being frozen down, but as we all know by now, such an assumption is utterly baseless and hardly suffices to render the theory valid.

[boys from the dwarf]

WHY can't Rinoa possibly be Ultimecia?

its not impossible but there isn't enough proof to say that rinoa is definetly ultimecia. SB has explained everything. ultimecia could be nearly any female character in this game. its not impossible. but there is no solid proof. the R=U theory i good and the evidence it brings up is also good but it has been disproven. i like the theory but there is no solid evidence that say that rinoa must be ultimecia.

[Ryushikaze]

Originally Posted by Pharoh Amon Khan III ^

WHY can't Rinoa possibly be Ultimecia? Everyone says that there is no 'evidence' in the game, but it is suggestive in the ending. Sure Selphie, Irvine and the gang get their shine, but Rinoa's image is repeated at the end and no one else except Ultimecia, making it highly suggestive. Also, for the sake of the arguement "It not in the game" or there's no evidence"... There are several ways of seeing the ending.

Yes, but without any evidence, there's no reason to believe any of them, especially the more outrageous of them.

There is the "Happy Ending" or the possiblity that Rinoa will/could become Ultimecia. For at the end of the game, Ultimecia still exists in the future and because of the Fated Children and Ellone, Ultimecia possesses the entire Succession of Witches save for Rinoa; and Edea who would be the Fated Successor of Ultimecia thus creating the "Loop of Fate".

Whether Rinoa becomes Ultimeica or not, the Fate of the Fated Children was to be the Fated Safe-Guard that ensured the defeat of the Ultimate Sorceress: Ultimecia.

I don't see how this aids your position. The succession actually speaks against it.

Now, as far as 'in the game' or 'evidence' goes, at the end of the game, Ultimecia still exists in the future and can possess any Sorceress she so chooses, for she has (technically) already done so. Also, as the game shows, Sorceress Rinoa is the final Sorceress, there are no other Sorceresses in the game after the ending.

Evidence, please?

And as the arguements started so is there the mystery of 'what happens' now? Will Rinoa become Ultimecia?

Someone told me that it didn't matter WHO Rinoa's successor would be, but that it 'did'/'will' happen. It DOES matter because we have no other assurance of who that will be or if there is a successor at all.

The succession of witches prove a successor, QED.

And there is the 'evidence' or lack there of... Of the 'possibility'. The only reason why it is rejected is because most do not want to see anything past the "Happy Ending"...

Appeal to motive. We reject it because it is groundless.

I personally don't believe that Sorceresses are 'immortal' but believe it or not kiddles, people DO live multiple generations. And as we see 'in the game' Edea Kramer succeeds Sorceress Ultimecia when she is around the age of 30 years old, and 15-18 years later she has not, cosmetically aged a day.

Evidence she was around thirty, and not around twenty? Evidence that she has not aged a day? Evidence that her appearance is out of the ordinary for a woman of her age?

Apparently, the Sorceress Power has the ability to affect the human physiology. (Elongated hair going to short, facial scars, tattooes, horns, and wings, ect). The ambiguity of what is defined as 'generations' or how many generations leaves the future untold as it should be for time travellers, otherwise they would go about trying to change 'fate' as Ultimecia did, but ultimately failed.

Bahamut dealt with this.

So... I don't see any reason 'Why Rinoa could become Ultimecia'.

And neither does anyone else.