Eyes on Final Fantasy Forums > Final Fantasy: The Quickening > Final Fantasy VIII > explanations. *serious spoilers. do not read uless you hae completed the game.*

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Doc Odine
"Eghhhhhh!"
"I kept this a secret to surprise you...It iz because of me, Odine!"
"I researched Ellone's power long ago."
"I made out a pattern from ze electric current running through Ellone's
brain."
"Once ze pattern was determined, it was easy to mechanize."
"It may only be a toy right now, but in ze time of Ultimecia, it iz an
impressive working machine!"
"Which means there iz a machine which imitates Ellone's power."
"It iz I who made ze first model of zat machine."
"I named ze machine 'Junction Machine Ellone'!"
"It iz a wonderful thing to know that my invention is used in ze future!"

Squall
"Junction Machine Ellone."

Laguna
"That's about it."

Squall
"So Sorceress Ultimecia came to know about Ellone, from that machine.'

Laguna
"And Elle became Ultimecia's target."
"You can't blame Odine. It's useless."

Doc Odine
"You vant to go outside!? You vant to fisticuffs!?"
"Ok, we continue the story!"

<>

Doc Odine
"Zat is too bad."

<>

My assumption of why Odine made the machine was wrong. I didn't remember exactly until just now I went to Icybrian and found the script. So, I'm knocking off my statement of Odine. I misinterpretated him. And I'm challeneging myself to say "but" it could be that some other scientists continued based upon his notes to evolve the JME. But that just bring us back to the unknown future or perspective. Basically, it's as irrelevant as assuming that Rinoa 'obviously' has a successor or not.

Let's continue, shall we?

[sephirothishere]

hey...whoawhoawhoawhoawhoawhoa.....this is kinda gettin outta hand...every thread i go into its like ryu khan ryu khan ryu khan....rkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrkrk r.,......i dont even bother readin the posts anymore.....agree to disagree.....no wait...i dont mean that....yeh so anyway this is some weak ass no get with it....dudes relax....you are jus messin with each others heads....

[Sir Bahamut]

PAK:

As I said, your only argument is that since we don't know for sure what will happen, anything could happen. Although it's true, it's entirely worthless in a rational debate, because it means ANYTHING can be considered a valid theory (eg. Irvine = Ultimecia etc.). For a rational debate to work in a meaningful way, a theory can only be considered valid if it meets certain criteria. It needs to have substantial, preferably unambiguous backing from the game itself (eg. through dialogue or misc. information etc.), must be reasonable when put in context with the entire story (ie. if the theory goes entirely against the entire rest of the story, it probably isn't that good), and must contain as few unfounded assumptions as possible. If faced with several competing theories, we then use the principle of parsimony to determine the better theory.

R=U not only suffers from lack of evidence, but it is unreasonable when placed in context with the rest of the story, and is MUCH less parsiminous than other theories on Ultimecia's background. Thus although R=U is technically speaking as possible as Irvine = Ultimecia or whatever, it cannot be said to be a valid theory. At least not in the context of rational debate.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

To Sephirothishere:
Relax... That's all over with now. And lighten the mood, some inspired music sung to the tune of "Mighty Mouse Is Here"

"Here he comes, get out the way... My god, it's Sephiroth is on his way!

With the masamune he will fillet... And burn the town of the vitcims he slayed.

Herald of the doomsday... For Sephiroth Is Here.... Todaaaaaaay.."

I probably could have done better or worse, but y'know... I'm no Lionel Richie.

Everyone else: Who?

Nevermind. Hope I didn't offend you Sephirothishere, I just saw your name and well... You see the results of my mind...

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

Originally Posted by Sir Bahamut ^

PAK:

As I said, your only argument is that since we don't know for sure what will happen, anything could happen. Although it's true, it's entirely worthless in a rational debate, because it means ANYTHING can be considered a valid theory (eg. Irvine = Ultimecia etc.). For a rational debate to work in a meaningful way, a theory can only be considered valid if it meets certain criteria. It needs to have substantial, preferably unambiguous backing from the game itself (eg. through dialogue or misc. information etc.), must be reasonable when put in context with the entire story (ie. if the theory goes entirely against the entire rest of the story, it probably isn't that good), and must contain as few unfounded assumptions as possible. If faced with several competing theories, we then use the principle of parsimony to determine the better theory.

I don't see this a 'worthless'. Such a harsh word. But as I said, the end is the beginning of this entire discussion and it leaves us with "The Future is Probablity". I don't see what you mean by rational versus parsimonious. Isn't it rational to included the fact that Rinoa is the Final Sorceress and there is no successor? Isn't parsimonious thinking to naturally assume there will "definitely" be a successor?


R=U not only suffers from lack of evidence, but it is unreasonable when placed in context with the rest of the story, and is MUCH less parsiminous than other theories on Ultimecia's background. Thus although R=U is technically speaking as possible as Irvine = Ultimecia or whatever, it cannot be said to be a valid theory. At least not in the context of rational debate.[/quote]


There is plenty of suggestive 'evidence' as stated in your FAQ, otherwise you wouldn't have written it. Just as people find otherwise suggestive counter-evidence to R-U.

You can not say that my questions are irrational, unreasonable, or worthless if it was the story itself that spawned such questions. And yes, these questions were before the R-U theory was known to me.

And as of lack of 'evidence' then where is the 'evidence' to assure that Rinoa will without a doubt find a successor?

Most people who assume there is nothing other than the Happy Ending say that she will definitely find a successor simply because that's the consensus of the plugged-in majority. Much like those that say "It has to be true, it was on TV." Or, "Our government would instigate 911! How dare you".

Basically, it comes down to taking people outside of their perspective box of the world. They don't like it. It's like getting unplugged from the matrix at a late age.

Despite how ugly the truth or probability of truth may seem it can still be the truth we don't want to picture.

Have we reached the point of neutrality where we can all at long last agree to disagree?

The only problem left here is that there is no definite yes or no because the uncertainty of future probability, and only those who say there is definitely a 'no' but definitely not a 'yes' or 'maybe'...

[jammi567]

Well, after reading all that bickering, i agree with you PAK, that it's best to agree to disagree. Because, in the end, we're never going to get a definate answer, certainly not 7 years after the game was released.

[Sir Bahamut]

I don't see this as 'worthless'. Such a harsh word.

It IS worthless though. If no one is wrong, no one is right, and the basis for a rational debate is destroyed. The point about rational debate is that we are supposed to rationally weigh up each point and asses the validity of any given theory. But if we do not assume that it is possible to asses the validity of a theory (which is what you suggest) this is impossible. Hence it renders this whole debate worthless. There's no way around it.

I don't see what you mean by rational versus parsimonious. Isn't it rational to included the fact that Rinoa is the Final Sorceress and there is no successor? Isn't parsimonious thinking to naturally assume there will "definitely" be a successor?

You must have misread me. I never stated anything about "parsimonious vs rational". It is NOT rational to state that it's a fact that Rinoa has no successor, because the game itself indicates otherwise in many ways. Rinoa herself states she will have a successor so her powers will one day reach Ultimecia, the Ultimania makes it clear that Rinoa must give up her powers before dying (which we know she must), and there are plenty of possible successors in the entire world of FF8.

It is not reasonable or parsimonious to assume Rinoa never has a successor, because it goes against the game and has no backing. Heck, according to the Ultimania it isn't even possible.

There is plenty of suggestive 'evidence' as stated in your FAQ, otherwise you wouldn't have written it. Just as people find otherwise suggestive counter-evidence to R-U.

The purpose of my FAQ was to show that virtually all the so-called "evidence" is NOT suggestive of R=U at all, and that they all make huge, shaky leaps in logic to establish R=U, when there are much more reasonable, simple steps of logic which demonstrate that the hints do not actually indicate R=U at all. In other words, the hints are not nearly good enough to count as meaningful evidence towards the theory.

You can not say that my questions are irrational, unreasonable, or worthless if it was the story itself that spawned such questions. And yes, these questions were before the R-U theory was known to me.

I've never been concerned with the validity of your "questions", only the manner in which you try to answer them.

And as of lack of 'evidence' then where is the 'evidence' to assure that Rinoa will without a doubt find a successor?

Sorry, but since the statement "Rinoa will not find a successor" is the outrageous claim (see above), you're the one who has to prove it. I don't have to prove anything, just like I don't have to prove that Squall is not a Moomba even if you believe he is.

Most people who assume there is nothing other than the Happy Ending say that she will definitely find a successor simply because that's the consensus of the plugged-in majority. Much like those that say "It has to be true, it was on TV." Or, "Our government would instigate 911! How dare you".

Basically, it comes down to taking people outside of their perspective box of the world. They don't like it. It's like getting unplugged from the matrix at a late age.

Appeal to motive, as Ryu would say. And correctly so. Stop acting as if you're only trying to "free us from the Matrix" and concentrate on showing us that it exists to begin with. Because you have not done so yet.

So I'm afraid I cannot agree to disagree. You have yet to show why R=U can be considered valid. All you have done is point out that it is possible. But "Squall is a Moomba" is also possible, yet I'm sure you would agree that is not valid.

[Pharoh Amon Khan III]

What proof do you need? She's the Final Sorceress. Ultimecia Reign is technically within their lifetime, there is no evidence of a Successor to Rinoa. What more does this make this valid to your judgement? You may as well try to convience me the validity that there is without a doubt a successor.

I really wish I could say more, but I can't... Maybe later. Till then, good journey.