Eyes on Final Fantasy Forums > Final Fantasy: Nerds in Paradise > Final Fantasy II > A Random and Civil Discussion about FFII

[Bolivar]

Originally Posted by Hazzard ^

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno ^

Originally Posted by Hazzard ^

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno ^

The cast was pretty good though I still have issues with Leon but Josef was my favorite with Mindu a close second. I feel FFIV was more influenced by this game than XII. The music it really well done as well. I love the Liberation Army theme Also it had such cool concepts and ideas going for it.

I would definitely agree that II influenced many of the later FF's, especially story-wise, and I think XII really copied many of the aspects involved in II. By the way, many of my stats have improved and I've realized that having loads of HP can sometimes be your flaw, due to the zombies/renevants. I just like to dual wield on characters, except Maria who uses a bow.

If you mean XII took the "Rebels vs. Evil Empire" story from II then it's actually a fairly tried and true story arc in story telling and has been around longer than even Star Wars

On the surface, if you generalize the story of Rebels vs. empire then yes the games seem similar from a story perspective but when you really look at the stories in detail then the games are very different. XII definetly took the "Fortress in the eye of the storm" and the fourth guest character ideas but little else IMHO.

IV fleshed out many of the archtypes and characters first presented in II. Gordon is very similiar to Edward/Gilbert from IV as well as Gareth having some minor influence on the developement of Kain.

Well I actually meant the following features that I've noticed so far:

1st- Hilda is very similar to Ashe. Both princesses who were wrongfully forced out. Both conspired and lead a rebel army.

2nd- Guest characters

3rd- The Dreadnought, and the imperialists were very identical to that of XII's and helped base off a few ideas solely from II.

^ Saving the princess on the dreadnought is one scenario that was borrowed

another's going to pharos, basically a large tower on an island, to get to some power where one of your guest characters sacrifices himself, then the tornado/sky fortress attacking the kingdom scenario.

4 of the characters are orphans from the war.

If Hilda had a sword, this game would be XII.

[Wolf Kanno]

Originally Posted by Bolivar ^

Originally Posted by Hazzard ^

Well I actually meant the following features that I've noticed so far:

1st- Hilda is very similar to Ashe. Both princesses who were wrongfully forced out. Both conspired and lead a rebel army.

2nd- Guest characters

3rd- The Dreadnought, and the imperialists were very identical to that of XII's and helped base off a few ideas solely from II.

^ Saving the princess on the dreadnought is one scenario that was borrowed

another's going to pharos, basically a large tower on an island, to get to some power where one of your guest characters sacrifices himself, then the tornado/sky fortress attacking the kingdom scenario.

4 of the characters are orphans from the war.

If Hilda had a sword, this game would be XII.

I still feel it's a rather generalization of the two stories. First off, Hilda plays a purely supportive role in the games story, she also wasn't exactly the main focus of the story either like Ashe was. Also, only Vaan, Penelo and Ashe are orphans but if we're going that route then half the FFs are copying FFII's plot since almost all the FF cast are orphans fighting represive empires and evil organizations with similiar clout to an empire.

The Leviathan scene has more refernces to Star Wars than FFII, the Pharos is also more relevant to XII's story as opposed to the tower you obtain Ultima. Ulitma is just a powerful spell whereas Nethicite is what everyone has been killing each other over for most of the game. Also the Pharos is where the party recieves insight into the mindset of the Occurians as well as Balthiers showdown with Cid and Ashe finally coming to terms with her choice of revenge or saving her kingdom. To say it's just a "tower where you obtain a powerful artifact and a major guest character dies" is pretty much a generalization of what went down in both games.

XII is about a party of adventurers trying to stop a war between rebels and the empire. Vaan and company are not memebers of the rebel army nor do they ever officially join one. The first half of the main quest focuses on the party trying to find a way to prove Lady Ashe is who she is. When they discover the family heirloom can be used as a weapon of great power the party searches for a way to neutralize it while Ashe debates over using the power against the empire itself. Occurinas get involved as well as some family squables and then we get the rip offed Bahamut that is a direct referece to FFII.

As opposed to FFII being about a group of teenagers orphaned by the imperial attack on their home town, they join the rebels sans one who disappeared in the chaos of the battle. Collect mythril for weapons, destroy the Dreadnought (which plays a much more important role in II as opposed to the Leviathans role in XII ), rescue Hilda and restore a sniveling's prince's feelings about himself. Obtain a spell of ancient power which quickly drops from story relevance once the spell is aquired. Retake their kingdom, slay the emperor, discover their lost friend is actually the right hand man to the emperor and has taken over his war machine, storm his fortress and kick the out of him, have the emperor return to life after conquering hell, storm Pandmonium with Leon in your party who has decided to join you, kick the demon emperors ass, and everyone lives happily ever after.

Yeah the games are just exactly the same thing

[Hazzard]

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno ^

Originally Posted by Bolivar ^

Originally Posted by Hazzard ^

Well I actually meant the following features that I've noticed so far:

1st- Hilda is very similar to Ashe. Both princesses who were wrongfully forced out. Both conspired and lead a rebel army.

2nd- Guest characters

3rd- The Dreadnought, and the imperialists were very identical to that of XII's and helped base off a few ideas solely from II.

^ Saving the princess on the dreadnought is one scenario that was borrowed

another's going to pharos, basically a large tower on an island, to get to some power where one of your guest characters sacrifices himself, then the tornado/sky fortress attacking the kingdom scenario.

4 of the characters are orphans from the war.

If Hilda had a sword, this game would be XII.

I still feel it's a rather generalization of the two stories. First off, Hilda plays a purely supportive role in the games story, she also wasn't exactly the main focus of the story either like Ashe was. Also, only Vaan, Penelo and Ashe are orphans but if we're going that route then half the FFs are copying FFII's plot since almost all the FF cast are orphans fighting represive empires and evil organizations with similiar clout to an empire.

The Leviathan scene has more refernces to Star Wars than FFII, the Pharos is also more relevant to XII's story as opposed to the tower you obtain Ultima. Ulitma is just a powerful spell whereas Nethicite is what everyone has been killing each other over for most of the game. Also the Pharos is where the party recieves insight into the mindset of the Occurians as well as Balthiers showdown with Cid and Ashe finally coming to terms with her choice of revenge or saving her kingdom. To say it's just a "tower where you obtain a powerful artifact and a major guest character dies" is pretty much a generalization of what went down in both games.

XII is about a party of adventurers trying to stop a war between rebels and the empire. Vaan and company are not memebers of the rebel army nor do they ever officially join one. The first half of the main quest focuses on the party trying to find a way to prove Lady Ashe is who she is. When they discover the family heirloom can be used as a weapon of great power the party searches for a way to neutralize it while Ashe debates over using the power against the empire itself. Occurinas get involved as well as some family squables and then we get the rip offed Bahamut that is a direct referece to FFII.

As opposed to FFII being about a group of teenagers orphaned by the imperial attack on their home town, they join the rebels sans one who disappeared in the chaos of the battle. Collect mythril for weapons, destroy the Dreadnought (which plays a much more important role in II as opposed to the Leviathans role in XII ), rescue Hilda and restore a sniveling's prince's feelings about himself. Obtain a spell of ancient power which quickly drops from story relevance once the spell is aquired. Retake their kingdom, slay the emperor, discover their lost friend is actually the right hand man to the emperor and has taken over his war machine, storm his fortress and kick the out of him, have the emperor return to life after conquering hell, storm Pandmonium with Leon in your party who has decided to join you, kick the demon emperors ass, and everyone lives happily ever after.

Yeah the games are just exactly the same thing

You are aware that I never said they were exactly the same game, in terms of story and all that. I did mention that I noticed there was many similarities between the two games, and how I'm certain that XII was greatly influenced by II for a number of points, and maybe inputed something from Star Wars as well. Basically, I think II took a great tole on XII's story, and it extracted more basis' in II than any other FF, and can you please explain how IV how some of the qualities in story that II had beforehand, and what features they copied.

[Wolf Kanno]

Originally Posted by Hazzard ^

You are aware that I never said they were exactly the same game, in terms of story and all that. I did mention that I noticed there was many similarities between the two games, and how I'm certain that XII was greatly influenced by II for a number of points, and maybe inputed something from Star Wars as well. Basically, I think II took a great tole on XII's story, and it extracted more basis' in II than any other FF, and can you please explain how IV how some of the qualities in story that II had beforehand, and what features they copied.

First off, sorry Hazzard. My rant was more geared towards Bolivar's comment of

If Hilda had a sword, this game would be XII.

rather than your specualtion. My thoughts are that FFXII was not influenced by II as much as Star Wars influenced both II and XII. Though each game is unique enough to not be complete copies of Star Wars and instead emerge as their own entities.

II only had a few influences on IV but I feel these influences are important enough to have a profound (though not very obvious) effect on certain factors that make FFIV truly shine. I honestly feel Gareth, Josef, and Gordon are achtypes created in II and later borrowed and expanded upon in IV in the forms of Kain, Yang, and Edward/Gilbert. Also both games feature a party change based upon calamatous events. Most of your support characters are killed in II while most in IV are injured. Both Gareth and Tellah die heroically fighting one on one against the main antagonists of their respected game and the whole Leon betraying you is expanded upon in Kain's story of betrayal in IV. Whether II actually influenced IV is up to debate and I have no rock hard evidence outside of speculation

[Hazzard]

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno ^

Originally Posted by Hazzard ^

You are aware that I never said they were exactly the same game, in terms of story and all that. I did mention that I noticed there was many similarities between the two games, and how I'm certain that XII was greatly influenced by II for a number of points, and maybe inputed something from Star Wars as well. Basically, I think II took a great tole on XII's story, and it extracted more basis' in II than any other FF, and can you please explain how IV how some of the qualities in story that II had beforehand, and what features they copied.

First off, sorry Hazzard. My rant was more geared towards Bolivar's comment of

If Hilda had a sword, this game would be XII.

rather than your specualtion. My thoughts are that FFXII was not influenced by II as much as Star Wars influenced both II and XII. Though each game is unique enough to not be complete copies of Star Wars and instead emerge as their own entities.

II only had a few influences on IV but I feel these influences are important enough to have a profound (though not very obvious) effect on certain factors that make FFIV truly shine. I honestly feel Gareth, Josef, and Gordon are achtypes created in II and later borrowed and expanded upon in IV in the forms of Kain, Yang, and Edward/Gilbert. Also both games feature a party change based upon calamatous events. Most of your support characters are killed in II while most in IV are injured. Both Gareth and Tellah die heroically fighting one on one against the main antagonists of their respected game and the whole Leon betraying you is expanded upon in Kain's story of betrayal in IV. Whether II actually influenced IV is up to debate and I have no rock hard evidence outside of speculation

I see what you mean there, but I'm also still not convinced how it's more influenced than XII. Maybe it might have been the first Final Fantasy to actually use some of the previous ideas from II, for the reasons you used above, but both stories are completely different, especially towards the end of the game in IV, but they did use most of the original traits from II, for example; the Dark Knight, a shady jealous character- Kain who is similarly a backstabber like Lionheart or whatever his name is. Yang does remind me of Josef, and the way they used them both as honorable monks/men who sacrifice their selves for the party. Edward is definitely the same as Gordon, but much worst.

That's all really for IV and II's relations, but XII has a whole load of ideas configured from II, but I think of it more as a show of respect that an older FF being copied. Overall, I love all of the games mentioned, except IV for various reasons.

[Bolivar]

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno ^

Originally Posted by Bolivar ^

Originally Posted by Hazzard ^

Well I actually meant the following features that I've noticed so far:

1st- Hilda is very similar to Ashe. Both princesses who were wrongfully forced out. Both conspired and lead a rebel army.

2nd- Guest characters

3rd- The Dreadnought, and the imperialists were very identical to that of XII's and helped base off a few ideas solely from II.

^ Saving the princess on the dreadnought is one scenario that was borrowed

another's going to pharos, basically a large tower on an island, to get to some power where one of your guest characters sacrifices himself, then the tornado/sky fortress attacking the kingdom scenario.

4 of the characters are orphans from the war.

If Hilda had a sword, this game would be XII.

I still feel it's a rather generalization of the two stories. First off, Hilda plays a purely supportive role in the games story, she also wasn't exactly the main focus of the story either like Ashe was. Also, only Vaan, Penelo and Ashe are orphans but if we're going that route then half the FFs are copying FFII's plot since almost all the FF cast are orphans fighting represive empires and evil organizations with similiar clout to an empire.

The Leviathan scene has more refernces to Star Wars than FFII, the Pharos is also more relevant to XII's story as opposed to the tower you obtain Ultima. Ulitma is just a powerful spell whereas Nethicite is what everyone has been killing each other over for most of the game. Also the Pharos is where the party recieves insight into the mindset of the Occurians as well as Balthiers showdown with Cid and Ashe finally coming to terms with her choice of revenge or saving her kingdom. To say it's just a "tower where you obtain a powerful artifact and a major guest character dies" is pretty much a generalization of what went down in both games.

XII is about a party of adventurers trying to stop a war between rebels and the empire. Vaan and company are not memebers of the rebel army nor do they ever officially join one. The first half of the main quest focuses on the party trying to find a way to prove Lady Ashe is who she is. When they discover the family heirloom can be used as a weapon of great power the party searches for a way to neutralize it while Ashe debates over using the power against the empire itself. Occurinas get involved as well as some family squables and then we get the rip offed Bahamut that is a direct referece to FFII.

As opposed to FFII being about a group of teenagers orphaned by the imperial attack on their home town, they join the rebels sans one who disappeared in the chaos of the battle. Collect mythril for weapons, destroy the Dreadnought (which plays a much more important role in II as opposed to the Leviathans role in XII ), rescue Hilda and restore a sniveling's prince's feelings about himself. Obtain a spell of ancient power which quickly drops from story relevance once the spell is aquired. Retake their kingdom, slay the emperor, discover their lost friend is actually the right hand man to the emperor and has taken over his war machine, storm his fortress and kick the out of him, have the emperor return to life after conquering hell, storm Pandmonium with Leon in your party who has decided to join you, kick the demon emperors ass, and everyone lives happily ever after.

Yeah the games are just exactly the same thing

Yes, I am fully aware of how star wars influenced XII, as I was one of the first to really go into detail about it in my "Not much of a Final Fantasy" thread...

And like Hazzard, I'm not saying they're exact scene-by-scene ripoffs, for you to even write that much to say it's not is redundant.

For example, I meant that Vaan, Penelo, Ashe, and Basch (homeland destroyed) are all orphaned from the war. I realize that very few final fantasy main characters aren't orphans, but this one focuses on those who lost their parents to the agressive acts of the empire.

But I'm pretty damn sure, that if they could fit it onto the DVD, you would've went to fight Vayne now joined with Venat somewhere else, making the last few acts of XII presented in the same way as II.(considering the way they actually put it into the game made it repetitive and lame).

[Wolf Kanno]

I take offense to having my post considered "redundant" but I'm going to just drop it cause I'm not in a mood for a fight (or getting banned over something this trivial) but I doubt the game would have ended similiar to II but then again who's to know but Matsuo...

And Hazzard... you don't like IV?

Back on topic. So here's a question... which do you feel had a greater impact on the genre. FFI or FFII?

[Crossblades]

Make Guy a pure fighter. Don't teach him any magic whatsoever. And make Firion and Maria learn one type of magic. Teaching two types of magic to one character is hard. Also, make Firion use Swords and shields and Maria a bow. This is what I always do when I play, but if you're comfortable with what you got, then kudos