Eyes on Final Fantasy Forums > Final Fantasy: The Quickening > Final Fantasy VII > Compilation of Final Fantasy VII > Thoughts of the movie

[Amaru]

Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Originally Posted by Amaru

Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Originally Posted by Amaru

Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

In FFVII, it was a team effort to save the planet, in Advent Children, cloud does it all himself. Which wouldn't have been so bad if he wasn't such an A$$ hole in the film.

Except that, you know, it took the entire team to help give him the momentum to reach Bahamut and strike him. It looked like a grand team effort to me...

Originally Posted by myself

team effort to save the planet, in Advent Children, cloud does it all himself.

Meaning team effort, everyone working together to defeat the main enemies, like kadaj, loz, Yazoo, and sephiroth. And notice during the fight against Bahamut, only cloud lands any real damage against bahamut. And only cloud can defeat the three new villains in combat. Only cloud fights Kadaj. Only Cloud fights Sephiroth. The films real subtitle shouldn't have been Advent Children, It should have been Cloud the Bipolar and his Amazing Super Friends.

Like I said, it wouldn't have been so bad if cloud was actually likeable. FFVII has some interesting characters like Vincent, Yuffie, Cid, and Red XIII. Why not actually let them have a respectable amount of spotlight?

You asked why someone would consider the rest of FFVII's main cast to only being relegated to clouds comic relief, that's the answer. Because THEY WERE relegated to the background. And when a film takes it's best characters, and makes them bit players in their own film, something is terribly wrong.

You seem to be under the impression that was meant to be a group sequel film. It wasn't, it never was, and certainly never meant to be. This started off life as a 15 minute retrospective on Cloud and his life after events of the game. It then grew it something larger, but the main focus and point was always on Cloud.

Thank you for answering your own question about why someone would complain about all other characters besides cloud being relegated to his comic relief.

Also, we all saw the film. and yes, only cloud defeated kadaj, sephiroth, yazoo, Loz, and Bahamut. Shooting at bahamut and hitting it, perhaps hurting it slightly doesn't count as defeating it. Fighting against Loz, and yazoo don't count as defeating them. Which is Advent Children's main weakness. It's little more then a fanfiction dedicated to how cool cloud is. It's the "Wolverine" syndrome at it's worst. Wolverine is a cool enough character in the X-Men Comics, but he is over-exposed and at times made to be a bit too tough, which makes him irritating. Ditto for cloud, but he isn't even a likeable character. Making the film a 90 minute+ wank fest over how tough he is just makes the film even worse. Yuffie is cute, amusing, yet has a sense of duty and tradition in her heritage. Vincent is cool and mysterious, as well as conflicted about his past. RedXIII is conflicted and attempting to mature, to follow in his fathers footsteps. THESE are characters I wouldn't mind seeing given a good 90 minutes or so to develop in their own film. If there IS another FFVII film, then I hope square hire's a better script writer and puts one of these characters in the spotlight.

But the fact is, they weren't relegated to comic relief. They each played a roll and helped out in the battle. There was nothing laughable about anything that they did. Only Reno and Rude, and a lesser extent Cait Sith, were actual comic relief. If hitting it doesn't count as defeating it, then Cloud did not defeat Yazoo and Loz. Reno and Rude did. Then they all exploded and killed Cloud and themselves with the blast. And it was the entire group that gave Cloud the strength and momentum, not to mention Aeris, to defeat Bahamut. And if it wasn't for Aeris, Cloud would still have the Geostigma and would have fallen to Kadaj. Like it or not, even if only Cloud, Tifa and Vincent were at the forefront of this movie, they each played a huge roll in things.

Cloud appearing to always be tough? I guess you didn't really see the film or play the game then. The entire concept of the game was that he thought that he was weak because he didn't live up to someone else's expectation or ranking of him, when in reality, he truly was. And again, throughout the entire game, it was only his friends helping him along and to discover his true self, that helped out. This is mirrored and repeated in the film, with Cloud all depressed and feeling weak, until Tifa and the others aid him.

[Oasis Writer]

Awesome debate has been going on Keep it up, very good points Amaru

[finaloblivion]

hands down, after knowing everything that happened in ffvii, i thoroughly enjoyed this movie. it was so awesome to see all the characters again - especially cloud and sephiroth. yea - there isnt too much character development, but then again...how many people who didnt play the game are going to go out and watch AC? not too many i think. i didnt think the translations went over too well either, especially with Kadaj and Tifa. but whatev...i give it 9/10. And the whole aeris being sexy and ultimate, i agree. i always wanted cloud to hook it up with her...and tifa at the same time.

[Ishin Ookami]

Originally Posted by Amaru

Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Originally Posted by Amaru

Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Originally Posted by Amaru

Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

In FFVII, it was a team effort to save the planet, in Advent Children, cloud does it all himself. Which wouldn't have been so bad if he wasn't such an A$$ hole in the film.

Except that, you know, it took the entire team to help give him the momentum to reach Bahamut and strike him. It looked like a grand team effort to me...

Originally Posted by myself

team effort to save the planet, in Advent Children, cloud does it all himself.

Meaning team effort, everyone working together to defeat the main enemies, like kadaj, loz, Yazoo, and sephiroth. And notice during the fight against Bahamut, only cloud lands any real damage against bahamut. And only cloud can defeat the three new villains in combat. Only cloud fights Kadaj. Only Cloud fights Sephiroth. The films real subtitle shouldn't have been Advent Children, It should have been Cloud the Bipolar and his Amazing Super Friends.

Like I said, it wouldn't have been so bad if cloud was actually likeable. FFVII has some interesting characters like Vincent, Yuffie, Cid, and Red XIII. Why not actually let them have a respectable amount of spotlight?

You asked why someone would consider the rest of FFVII's main cast to only being relegated to clouds comic relief, that's the answer. Because THEY WERE relegated to the background. And when a film takes it's best characters, and makes them bit players in their own film, something is terribly wrong.

You seem to be under the impression that was meant to be a group sequel film. It wasn't, it never was, and certainly never meant to be. This started off life as a 15 minute retrospective on Cloud and his life after events of the game. It then grew it something larger, but the main focus and point was always on Cloud.

Thank you for answering your own question about why someone would complain about all other characters besides cloud being relegated to his comic relief.

Also, we all saw the film. and yes, only cloud defeated kadaj, sephiroth, yazoo, Loz, and Bahamut. Shooting at bahamut and hitting it, perhaps hurting it slightly doesn't count as defeating it. Fighting against Loz, and yazoo don't count as defeating them. Which is Advent Children's main weakness. It's little more then a fanfiction dedicated to how cool cloud is. It's the "Wolverine" syndrome at it's worst. Wolverine is a cool enough character in the X-Men Comics, but he is over-exposed and at times made to be a bit too tough, which makes him irritating. Ditto for cloud, but he isn't even a likeable character. Making the film a 90 minute+ wank fest over how tough he is just makes the film even worse. Yuffie is cute, amusing, yet has a sense of duty and tradition in her heritage. Vincent is cool and mysterious, as well as conflicted about his past. RedXIII is conflicted and attempting to mature, to follow in his fathers footsteps. THESE are characters I wouldn't mind seeing given a good 90 minutes or so to develop in their own film. If there IS another FFVII film, then I hope square hire's a better script writer and puts one of these characters in the spotlight.

But the fact is, they weren't relegated to comic relief. They each played a roll and helped out in the battle. There was nothing laughable about anything that they did. Only Reno and Rude, and a lesser extent Cait Sith, were actual comic relief. If hitting it doesn't count as defeating it, then Cloud did not defeat Yazoo and Loz. Reno and Rude did. Then they all exploded and killed Cloud and themselves with the blast. And it was the entire group that gave Cloud the strength and momentum, not to mention Aeris, to defeat Bahamut. And if it wasn't for Aeris, Cloud would still have the Geostigma and would have fallen to Kadaj. Like it or not, even if only Cloud, Tifa and Vincent were at the forefront of this movie, they each played a huge roll in things.

Cloud appearing to always be tough? I guess you didn't really see the film or play the game then. The entire concept of the game was that he thought that he was weak because he didn't live up to someone else's expectation or ranking of him, when in reality, he truly was. And again, throughout the entire game, it was only his friends helping him along and to discover his true self, that helped out. This is mirrored and repeated in the film, with Cloud all depressed and feeling weak, until Tifa and the others aid him.

I guess you didn't see the movie then. Because EVERY major battle was decided by cloud and cloud alone. Hardly a weak pressence in the film. Noone else got half the spotlight that cloud did. Vincent barely had five minutes of screen time, and tifa has one lousy fight scene, then she is either pathetically weak, whining, or relegated to being clouds cheerleader. I hope those are not what you consider to be major roles.

Also the term, Comic relief, does not only apply to those who are supplying the humorous lines or portrayals, it is also a cinematic term used to sum up the role of background characters of no real importance to the film. Think about it, take out Cid, Yuffie, Barrett, Cait Sith (Please, take him out) and Red XIII and just how much does AC lose, next to nothing. Take out vincent, and all you lose is a explanation as to just what Geostigma is and an explanation as to what kadaj is. Take out Tifa, and all you lose is one mediocre fight scene, and a whole lot of whining and inexplicable pining over cloud. These are what would be known as tertiary characters, or to use a more common, less wordy term among cinematic circles, comic relief.

Hence why calling everyone else but cloud in the film, comic relief, is technically accurate since noone else but cloud did anything of real importance. Save Aerieth, but aint she supposed to be dead. Dont get me started on how stupid it is to have a dead chick solving all the films problems. I can kinda see all the scriptwriter sweating over cloud flying through the omega flare, wondering how he survives this one, then a guy walks in cosplaying as Aerieth shouting "never fear, Aerieth is here" and the scriptwriter just tosses his hands in the air and says "hey why not?"

Also, I find statements like these to be rather contradicting...

Cloud appearing to always be tough? I guess you didn't really see the film or play the game then. The entire concept of the game was that he thought that he was weak...

So, cloud thinks he is weak but is actually strong. Great, instead of being yet another "Wolverine" type character in AC, he's wolverine, except he whines alot. How exactly is this supposed to be in any way a charismatic concept?

Also note we are not talking about the game here, we are talking about the movie. Hence all the Advent Children topics everywhere in this thread

[Amaru]

Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

I guess you didn't see the movie then. Because EVERY major battle was decided by cloud and cloud alone. Hardly a weak pressence in the film. Noone else got half the spotlight that cloud did. Vincent barely had five minutes of screen time, and tifa has one lousy fight scene, then she is either pathetically weak, whining, or relegated to being clouds cheerleader. I hope those are not what you consider to be major roles.

You just don't get it do you, and I guess you didn't read any of my post either. Every major battle wasn't decided by Cloud and Cloud alone. He either had major help or it was set up by someone else. Aeris helped him in the Kadaj fight. Vincent helped him against all three and saved his life. The team rescued Tifa. The team gave Cloud the strength to beat Bahamut (and again, with Aeris). So no, it wasn't decided all by Cloud and Cloud alone.

And by the way, I think that I already established that the film was about Cloud, and always had been, so I'm not bothering with that second statement at all.

Also the term, Comic relief, does not only apply to those who are supplying the humorous lines or portrayals, it is also a cinematic term used to sum up the role of background characters of no real importance to the film. Think about it, take out Cid, Yuffie, Barrett, Cait Sith (Please, take him out) and Red XIII and just how much does AC lose, next to nothing. Take out vincent, and all you lose is a explanation as to just what Geostigma is and an explanation as to what kadaj is. Take out Tifa, and all you lose is one mediocre fight scene, and a whole lot of whining and inexplicable pining over cloud. These are what would be known as tertiary characters, or to use a more common, less wordy term among cinematic circles, comic relief.

* Take out Vincent - Cloud would have been killed
* Take out Aeris - Cloud would have been killed
* Take out Tifa - Cloud wouldn't have had the courage to go and fight and rescue the kids
* Take out the team - Tifa would have been toast

So no, I'm really not seeing this so called explanation for 'comic relief'.

Hence why calling everyone else but cloud in the film, comic relief, is technically accurate since noone else but cloud did anything of real importance.

I think I've already proven otherwise.

Save Aerieth, but aint she supposed to be dead. Dont get me started on how stupid it is to have a dead chick solving all the films problems. I can kinda see all the scriptwriter sweating over cloud flying through the omega flare, wondering how he survives this one, then a guy walks in cosplaying as Aerieth shouting "never fear, Aerieth is here" and the scriptwriter just tosses his hands in the air and says "hey why not?"

If you find a dead girl, who had a massive role in the main game storyline, helping out wrong, when the entire factor of this sequel film is about death not being the end - for Jenova, for Aeris, Sephiroth or Cloud, the main theme has just gone right over your head.

Either way, you must not like many fantasy films...

Also, I find statements like these to be rather contradicting...

Cloud appearing to always be tough? I guess you didn't really see the film or play the game then. The entire concept of the game was that he thought that he was weak...

So, cloud thinks he is weak but is actually strong. Great, instead of being yet another "Wolverine" type character in AC, he's wolverine, except he whines alot. How exactly is this supposed to be in any way a charismatic concept?

It's not that hard to understand. You have a strength that you do not realise you have. Your mental barrier stops you from exerting your full physical potential. It's quite simple and engaging really.

Also note we are not talking about the game here, we are talking about the movie. Hence all the Advent Children topics everywhere in this thread

Note that AC lends itself heavily to the game. Everything comes from and is reflected from the game. Therefore, all conversation and links to the game have a presence here.

[Ishin Ookami]

You just don't get it do you, and I guess you didn't read any of my post either. Every major battle wasn't decided by Cloud and Cloud alone. He either had major help or it was set up by someone else. Aeris helped him in the Kadaj fight. Vincent helped him against all three and saved his life. The team rescued Tifa. The team gave Cloud the strength to beat Bahamut (and again, with Aeris). So no, it wasn't decided all by Cloud and Cloud alone.

Basically Advent reduces vincent into a modern day Tonto to clouds lone ranger. He shows up to help cloud, give him directions, but it is cloud who is always landing the deciding blows on his own, thus officially relegating Vincent into the role of tertiary comic relief. You can re-imagine it all you want, but the only way it would be different is if vincent managed to defeat one of the Jenova spawns on his own, not hold them off while he retreats. Most of FFVII's cast were definitely more interesting and charismatic then cloud at this best, yet here cloud is the centerpiece, the defining end all and be all of the film. It's simply a very poor choice for a main character.

* Take out Vincent - Cloud would have been killed

Take out tonto, Lone ranger would have been killed. Doesnt mean tonto aint the sidekick now does it?

* Take out Aeris - Cloud would have been killed

Last I checked, Sephiroth ALREADY took her out. Death may not be the TRUE end, but it's the end of the character for the physical and material plains of existence. Having aerieth physically interact, and resolve each and every one of the films major crisis points was just lazy, sloppy, and unimaginative. I dont know if you read comics, but one of the reasons the storyline "Days of Future Past" was such a hit when it first came out, was that it showed each of the main characters of the series, dead, or being killed brutally. It was one of the first main comic titles to do so with it's main characters, and Clairemont managed to resolve the tension believably. Having Aeries show up to resolve the drama was weak, I think they should have let cloud die to give the film some emotional pull. Instead I can almost see wayne and garth in the background of the life stream saying "As if! Like we'd really end the film like this. Lets do the mega happy ending."

* Take out Tifa - Cloud wouldn't have had the courage to go and fight and rescue the kids

Now I know you didnt watch the film. All Tifa did was NAG at him "How come you don't answer your phone." It was Reno and Rude that translated and gave cloud the advice to go save the freakin day already.

* Take out the team - Tifa would have been toast

Good. Like I said in the Days of Future past referrence, having a character die, or be maimed adds drama and meaning. Hell that's something even the frickin game got right.

Hence why calling everyone else but cloud in the film, comic relief, is technically accurate since noone else but cloud did anything of real importance.

I think I've already proven otherwise.

back atchya.

If you find a dead girl, who had a massive role in the main game storyline, helping out wrong, when the entire factor of this sequel film is about death not being the end - for Jenova, for Aeris, Sephiroth or Cloud, the main theme has just gone right over your head.

Either way, you must not like many fantasy films...

Actually I'm quite the fan of Fantasy, such as Lord of the Rings (the defacto choice of all fantasy fans) and other fare such as Dragonheart (a film that actually KNEW how to handle concepts such as redemption) and even Spirits Within. Which I personally thought was a great film.

[quote]Also, I find statements like these to be rather contradicting...

It's not that hard to understand. You have a strength that you do not realise you have. Your mental barrier stops you from exerting your full physical potential. It's quite simple and engaging really.

Plot devices such as that one, are indeed engaging, when done correctly. One of the oldest examples I can think of is the biblical tale of Gideon, who was meek and even cowardly, yet led the army of Israel to one of it's more grandest victories. Others include Cyrano De Bergerac, where Cyrano fearing himself ugly and unattractive woo's the woman he loves from afar, in the name of another man. His words, his passion, his sincerity does get the girl for his third party, but she is soon dismayed by her new loves lack of romanticism that was present in the letters.

But Advent Children misses the boat by not having any real internal struggle or charisma on acct of it's main character. Face it, cloud may ride kaneda's bike and wield a pimped out version of the "Mother / Child sword" from Dragon Inn, but that does not make him at all likeable. He whines, he moaps, He works through survivors guilt in five seconds. This is not a sincere or emotionally affecting struggle, it's contrivance in it's most laughable form. Cloud has neither the passion of Cyrano, nor the true fear and timidity, yet loyalty for his cause that Gideon had, nor the nobility of Aaragon as he worked through his shame of his ancestry for the sake of the woman he loved and the survival of his kingdom. Nor the emotional conflicts of Aki Ross, recounting the story of a fatalistic child, hoping to bring hope to a lost world as she wrestles between her faith, and the love her faith is costing her. Each of these characters have characteristics that make them likeable, and make you cheer for them, because what they are doing is sincerely decent, good, and important despite their personal demons. Cloud is just a lame, unlikeable, fool of a character that is blessed with contrivance upon contrivance. By a director who is really trying to make you believe cloud is cool to save his financially struggling company.

Note that AC lends itself heavily to the game. Everything comes from and is reflected from the game. Therefore, all conversation and links to the game have a presence here.

references and mentions of the game have a presence, avoiding a point about the movie's weaknesses by citing the game is avoiding the issue, hence my mentioning that we are talking of the movie, not the game.

[jesteranimefreak]

Originally Posted by Ishin Ookami

Last I checked, Sephiroth ALREADY took her out. Death may not be the TRUE end, but it's the end of the character for the physical and material plains of existence. Having aerieth physically interact, and resolve each and every one of the films major crisis points was just lazy, sloppy, and unimaginative.

Originally Posted by Inshin Ookami

references and mentions of the game have a presence, avoiding a point about the movie's weaknesses by citing the game is avoiding the issue, hence my mentioning that we are talking of the movie, not the game.

I'm going to make one reference to the game just to point out why Aeris's saving the day from the grave bit in AC made sense, at least in my mind.

Wasn't it Aeris that called forth the Lifestream to aid Holy? In one way it's the planet because the planet doen't want to die. But it shows, both in the game and in a non-canonical novel Maiden Who Saves the Planet found in the Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Ω Guide, that even the dead have consciensous in the Lifestream.

Now I watched Advent before playing the game. Taking the movie from that perspective I found that Advent had an intersting and captivating story. And it's not the whole Cloud has to defeat Kadaj and his gang because they're stirring up trouble... even in the ending when Cloud's facing Sephiroth it's not that. It is about Cloud looking for... innocence. Cloud is looking for the innocence that he once had prior to the events in Nibelheim. He falsely finds this innocence in Aries, hence the reason why he is outwardly looking for forgivness. It is in the end of the movie... the scene with the chirldren in the church that, through Aries' gentel guidence, he finds innocence in the children. It's titled Advent Chiildren for a reason. This story is about Marlene and Denzel as much as it is about Cloud.

[Amaru]

I've been sick for the last couple of days, so I really can't be bothered to counter all of that Ishin. It's quite obvious that your problem with things extend far beyond the movie itself.