Don't you wish you were an Arab woman too?

A somewhat graphic image. (http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/19/saudi.batteredhost.ap)

Can you even conceive of something like that happening in the US? To a newscaster? I know that men beat women in our society too, but I think the difference is that here, wife-beaters are seen almost universally as one of the lowest forms of scum alive. I really have a hard time even imagining a culture where women are seen as inherenly inferior to men.


<i>Although Islam prohibits violence against women, many believe spousal abuse is common in the almost entirely Muslim Saudi Arabia.

There are no statistics available on wife abuse in the kingdom, but husbands rarely meet disapproval for "reforming" spouses deemed "disobedient" by hitting them.

...

Bashatah pointed out that Saudi women need to be accompanied by a male guardian even if they want to go to the police to report abuse.

Saudi law requires a woman to be accompanied by a male guardian -- her husband, or, for unmarried women, her father, brother or son -- on almost any public chore. Saudi women also are not allowed to drive.</i>

Well, until just recently, the concept of 'marital rape' didn't exist, it was legally impossible for a man to rape his wife - and that's in our mighty and idealistic Western culture. Violence against women, treating them as inferior has long been humanity's shame - no culture is innocent of it. People have always used religion as an excuse for this power imbalance, too. Christians, Muslims, whoever.

Women are still treated worse than their male counterparts, denied job opportunities and paid less than men with similar qualifications. Like it or not, our culture still treats women as inferior.

I believe that the intensity with which women are repressed by strict Islamic states is repulsive, and needs to be changed in order to bring their societies forward... but really, other cultures need to look at their own history and own present reality before looking for another excuse to lash out at Arabs in general. "Gender equality" is still a myth everywhere; spousal abuse harms far more women than men, and victims are always afraid to report it. The worst traits of humanity are the ones found most often.

Women get beat up for the same reason children do - they're smaller and weaker than just about any man. Weak-hearted men take advantage of their superior physical strength, and abuse women and children.

Also - for once, I don't think there's a firm connection between this happening in a Muslim Arab nation, to the actual event. However, I do think this woman must be extremely brave, to show her face like that, to all the country. I don't know what will become of her because of it (she might be executed), but I think that it brings a problem that exists everywhere, but is not spoken of in Muslim countries (because women have almost no saying there).

There is a big discussion about that here in Holland right now. France deported a muslim cleric for preaching that women should be beaten when they lie to their husbands, and that homosexual men should be stoned to death.

The El-Tawheed mosque here in Amsterdam sells the book "The way of the muslim", which also says women who lie to their husbands should be beaten with sticks, and girls should be circumcised. The government is discussing whether this should be banned.

There is something wrong with a religion that preaches violence.

Don't expect much from a fundamentalist country. And yet, as Big D said, here you also have discrimination, although it's obviously lower.

And well, this is nothing new, it happens every day, everywhere. Dilapidations, clitoris mutilation, margination, etc. And the only solution, I guess, is for woman such as this one, to fight back. And really, even if the story in that article is not a happy one, I like to know women such as this exist.

And this occurs in Spain too. In the last year, wife beatings increased by a 33%. It also occurs a lot in Germany too, I don't know about US though. About this, the songwriter Víctor Manuel did quite an interesting short video he directed himself. It's called "The Club of Dead Women":

http://www.clubcultura.com/haymotivo/video30.htm

Oh, yeah, it shows a little nudity. It's interesting though, I can translate the lyrics if someone is interested.

Yes, wife-beating happens all over the world. The difference is that it's a crime in all civilised countries. Telling people domestic violence and mutilation of children are their religious duty is evil. There's no other word for it.
Holland used to be proud of its tolerance. Now it tolerates imams preaching not to tolerate gay men and Jews. On the other hand, several Dutch journalists were recently censored or even suspended for criticising islamic fundamentalism. Never criticise the Arabs, we'd have no petrol without them, and we all love our cars more than human rights.

I agree that Christian fundamentalism is almost as bad as Islamic fundamentalism when it comes to gender equality and lack thereof. For example, read http://www.momof9splace.com/obey.html

<i>Women are still treated worse than their male counterparts, denied job opportunities and paid less than men with similar qualifications. Like it or not, our culture still treats women as inferior.</i> --Big D

Not paying a woman as much as a man for a job, compared with condoning beating your wife or forbidding her from showing her face in public or learning to drive or sometimes even to go to school. I will agree that both are different degrees of the same thing, but the difference in degree is so great as to make the comparison almost pointless.

<i>I believe that the intensity with which women are repressed by strict Islamic states is repulsive, and needs to be changed in order to bring their societies forward... but really, other cultures need to look at their own history and own present reality before looking for another excuse to lash out at Arabs in general.</i>

Why? We used to have slavery in this country; does that if a modern-day country practices slavery, that I have no room to criticize them? I don't care about the past. I myself never have seen women as inferior; anyone who does, I'm going to criticize.

Thanks for that link, Unne, it made me vomit :D (The Christian one)

As for the whole wife beating thing, most islamic imans do not believe in it. Those who defend wife beating are a few, as far as I know, and as far as my experience goes with muslims, none of them has ever defended such actions.

Then we have the extremist christians, who are just as bad. In fact, the founder of the Popular Party (That one who left our goverment last month, thanks God) said something "If wifes get beaten, it's because they have done something". Yeah, marrying an asshole.

Fortunately, many Arabic countries are modernising, just as the West did in the past. The old intolerances are doomed to die; it's an inevitable societal change, I believe.I don't care about the past. I myself never have seen women as inferior; anyone who does, I'm going to criticize.So if you see an Arab woman being treated as inferior, you'll criticise the Arab ethnicity in general? That's what the thread title sounds like...
All I'm saying is that women still don't get equal opportunities and rewards, even in our countries, so everyone still has work to do with regards to equal rights.

On a slightly related matter, recent statistics have shown a huge increase in the amount of domestic violence inflicted on men by their female spouses in western countries... it's just reported less.

It's scary that that sort of thing goes on in the world. It's even scarier that our government ignores it, and even condones it, in a way. Muslim women in Indonesia are treated in similar ways to the ones Shadow Nexus mentioned. And the Australian government still gives Indonesia millions of dollars every year in aid. Sigh.

I agree that the majority of religions have persecuted women in their extremist forms. Christian and Muslim alike. I just hope that education will change that way of thinking over time.

Oh, yeah. From that link...

"A woman is different in her body, in her intrestests, in her thinking, in her abilities: not inferior—different."

That's definitely the most hypocritical statement I've read in ages. xD

<i>So if you see an Arab woman being treated as inferior, you'll criticise the Arab ethnicity in general? That's what the thread title sounds like...</i> --Big D

I'll criticize any culture or philosophy which includes violence towards women or tolerance of violence towards women. I'm not sure I'd use the word "ethnicity"; I prefer "belief system" or "culture". You're probably trying to imply that I'm stereotyping. I'm not saying all Arab men beat their wives; I'm saying that it's apparently part of Arab culture that wife-beating is OK, or that many people (not all people, only many) ignore it or condone it, and that I dislike the culture for that reason (and also dislike those individuals who participate in treating women badly).

<i>I just hope that education will change that way of thinking over time.</i> --Ariel

Which is probably why many countries refuse to let women attend school.

Unne, you may say arab culture may look discriminative against women, specially in the whole making them wear a blanket (Or a veil, whatever it's called) over their head, or considering she must stay at home. My experience in arab countires is more or less extense, I even lived in Tunisia for two months, and I could aprreaciate women were not treated the same way as men, but they were allowed to work too, only the conservative sides had some problems in that. OK, so Tunisia is rather modern (Not more than Egypt, where women were allowed to vote in 1919) but as for conservative muslim countires, I do not believe something such as wife beating is condoned. Opression is, though. I remember in Egypt, all this saudi guys who went to the hotel with four women, all covered up in black, only showing the eyes. I found it horrible, really, so it feels good to see someone there fights against such opression and fundamnetalist puritanism.

I haven't read the entire thread since its obvious that judging someone inferior for any reason is disgusting, but I just wanted to comment on this:Well, until just recently, the concept of 'marital rape' didn't exist, it was legally impossible for a man to rape his wifeThis isn't really an issue against women, since it would also apply if a wife were to rape her husband. Or course females raping males is uncommon, but I'm just sayin' is all.

Still, Bashatah said Saudi courts have judged in favor of abused women before.
I just love how that was kind of tossed in at the end. :mad2:

The sad part is, that many muslim women/girls feels that these "rules" are just best for them. They wouldn't just have to accept their "role", if some people could unite...and stuff. I hope this case helps, eventhough this whole thing was brutal, but something good could come out of this. But I doubt it.

I have respect on many things in Arabic cultures, but somethings needs to be changed, even by using some pressure from outside.

I <i>hate</i> women's postion in Arabic countries with passion. Which also almost ruined my life and drove me in depression. Mostly I hate these arranged marriages, where woman can't choose to share her life with someone she loves. Wait, they're not getting many chances to really get to know opposite sex either; first thing is the marriage when you get to be with someone alone first time ( and time before marriage).

Equality takes a long time to establish, it took the western world long enough and we're still not completely there yet. When you grow up in a culture that condones or ignores wife-beatings, chances are you're probably going to end up a wife-beater yourself. Hopefully this woman standing up and going public will be a step in the right direction and help to break the cycle.

yes because all arab women are obviously all beaten up by their oppressive, male counterparts. :rolleyes2

yes because all arab women are obviously all beaten up by their oppressive, male counterparts.
Probably not, but when they are, it's still a normal thing. So, they can't complain or do anything about, but to take it like a... well, woman.

this debate came up in colledge when a british born muslim female studant started defending the ways of her original nationality. i didnt try to argue her or brainwash her...simply point out the STUPID logic of it....but she wouldnt see it because she didnt want to...i suppose it helped that she was in a country that doesnt condone those things. ive heard muslims etc talk about how, as children, all the women in the house were made to eat off the floor and only the men were aloud to sit at the table. it wasnt written anywhere in any rules or religous books that this should be done.....it was simply "tradition" and suppresstion, but since they couldnt read and werent tought how to untill they fled.....they never knew untill recently.

but then again in ancient celtic socity over here in britian and ireland it was often the females who ruled over the tribes. They were more intelligant, better cummnicators and in fact more viloent and deadly. the celtic men would have a fight and forgive the next day, but teh celtic women went to WAR. i dont mean knifes and skullduggery, im talking Boudica, swords and spear and chariots. this is probably why the celts were such amazing artists in gold. recently the national museum welcomed some chinese specilits over and they said that teh celts were more adcanced in their art and metal works than the chinese etc.

women are the more powerful sex in many ways....but they have to use that power. many simply dont want to and exist in denile.

"this debate came up in colledge when a british born muslim female studant started defending the ways of her original nationality. i didnt try to argue her or brainwash her...simply point out the STUPID logic of it....but she wouldnt see it because she didn’t want to...i suppose it helped that she was in a country that doesnt condone those things."

Perhaps she would have a hard time pointing out the horrors of the Christian world e.g. Abortion and invading other countries for economic gains.

Many Muslim women appreciate their tradition as it facilitates a path to salvation, provided they follow the strict rules and obey their husbands. I have seen women in the west who stay with the most violent men because they hold to their beliefs. We say that we are the progressive and enlightened, but we are looking in from an undisciplined structure...I assume that we are all aware or have experienced grief but is anyone here familiar with horror. I am not so I won't judge them.

“Equality takes a long time to establish, it took the western world long enough and we're still not completely there yet. When you grow up in a culture that condones or ignores wife-beatings, chances are you're probably going to end up a wife-beater yourself. Hopefully this woman standing up and going public will be a step in the right direction and help to break the cycle.”

Equality still doesn’t mean happiness, which is what most women complain about today. When we look at women in the past they were intelligent, and they were happy. My grandmother lived a long life; she was an award winning gardener and won in porcelain doll exhibitions. Today women have the choice to do as they please, they have exceeded the men in every way – and left the men behind. In doing so many women have woken to the fact that they have missed the opportunity to have children as they are either to old (risk of down syndrome increases) or can’t find a personal Brad Pitt. Equality is not as its title suggests - as women have taken on the roles above and beyond the capacity of one individual while men are still back in the 1950’s. Women have too many pressures placed on them by family, society and not to mention men.

yes because all arab women are obviously all beaten up by their oppressive, male counterparts. :rolleyes2
I know a girl who grew up in Iran. It's pretty normal. It's not seen as oppressive. Sure, it doesn't happen to everyone. Just like not everyone goes to high school in America. Just a ridiculously large portion.

we arent a christian world anymore......at least no more than we are jewish, islamic, pagan. Infact since paganism and earth magic was the original belif system over here in teh UK and Ireland (scotland and wales) and it still has a strong following today.....you could say that the united kingdom is still paganistic and not christian based since that belif simply drifted here with the tides of invation. But i agree that abortion and teh ideal of world domination are not good, but then neither is teh fact that most islamic follows ignor their own teachings and start killing other people when it says clearly not to.

yeah ive been only too familuar with horror, i grew up in one of the roughest parts of the northeast where old women froze to deaths in their homes while young teenagers froze to death on teh streets...i could go on further but people start going nuts.

actually teh western world has had equality since it's origins. history is wrote by teh victors and it's currently belived that the demsel in distress never existed but that women owned and ran their own kingdoms etc. but when we reached the victorian era they created the "myth" of the weaker female and damsel in distress. it's like the tide, these things come and these things go.

most islamic follows ignor their own teachings and start killing other people when it says clearly not to.What?
"Most" Muslims kill people? You might want to watch the ol' "sweeping generalisations" there. The overwhelming majority of Muslims don't kill people. What you just said would be like saying "Oh, those Irish Catholics, always murdering everyone else, the lot of 'em". Simply untrue, and quite offensive to certain people. Please take care.

<i>we arent a christian world anymore......</i> --Snowman

Er, the world never was Christian. Europe was, I guess, but Europe isn't the whole world. Eastern Asia has never been predominately Christian that I know of, for example.

Unne - i was reffering to Besimudo's post where he refferd to a christian world....while i agree that the Entire world has never been christian....that isnt what the christians think, nor is it the belif of most power hungry faiths. of course earth magic etc doesnt force a belif on anyone.

I admit Big D when it comes to islam, muslims etc, im iggnorant, and i dont really care what differnces and sects and names they all use the same way i dont care for teh differnces between catholics and christians...it's all about one person interpreting something one way or teh other instead of ACTUALLY reading what they are preaching. never the less when a lecturer made a documentry travelling to these far off lands and meeting all these differnt faiths....they were all obssesd with murder and revenge. one lot (while in their colledge), while their teachings and faith decreed you shouldnt kill women, children, nor cut down tree's..they simply brushed it off and said we have no choice but to kill and do so by suicide because we have no guns. they looked like normal poeple...and yet they were happy to murder. your right it is wrong to generalise....but thats the state and appearance of ALL OF THEM. it's not fair but thats how it is.

but thats the state and appearance of ALL OF THEM.Nope. There are, what... half a billion Muslims in the world? I'm not sure, but there are lots anyway. The vast majority, including those I've known, aren't murderous fanatics. Sure, the extremists can be classified as such, but the same goes for extremists in any religion. It's the visible exception, rather than the unobserved rule. The media only notices the ones who stand out.

Besimudo's "Christian world", I think, refers to the dominant religions and historical influences in "our world", i.e. our countries and cultures. Not the world as a whole. A hundred or so years ago, most of our countries were largely Christian; this is reflected in state institutions and whatnot that still exist today.

There are, what... half a billion Muslims in the world?
1.7, actually, and growing daily. Now isn't that a happy thought. :)

Islam poses a serious threat now, as it is going through the same phase religions go through - it has gained strength, and is now moving for conquest.

Let me elaborate a bit, on theses 'stages'...

A religion is born. It starts off with a (usually) violent boom, and spreads to some people and territory. Then, after a while, after it has refined itself, and gained power and followers, it goes off to prove itself. This takes about a millenia, usually. Judaism formed around 4,200 years ago... and 3,200 years ago, they made war upon the people that lived in Ken'an, today's Israel, and captured that piece of land.

300 years after Jesus' death, Christianity suddenly became the religion of the Roman empire. All other faiths were persecuted. In 1095 - the first crusade was waged against the Muslims, who captured Christian holy sites.

In 632 and in the years following, Islam has spread like fire through the Arabian peninsula, and the surrounding areas. The famous 'Convert or Die' policy has come to be, and soon, all the local tribes were either vanquished, or Muslim. Today, after some 1,300 years, Islam reigns over most of the Third World (Africa, the Middle East, Asia), and is going through the same phase Judaism went through 3,200 years ago, and Christianity 1,000 years ago - the stage of conquet, of testing their self-worth, their convictions, and their strength. The 'Conver or Die' approach has been revived.

"Besimudo's "Christian world", I think, refers to the dominant religions and historical influences in "our world", i.e. our countries and cultures. Not the world as a whole. A hundred or so years ago, most of our countries were largely Christian; this is reflected in state institutions and whatnot that still exist today."

Thank-you, I was speaking of the Christian world as in Europe and western culture.

Christianity has about 2 billion followers. My source states 1.3 billion for Islam! where did you find 1.7?

"we arent a christian world anymore......at least no more than we are jewish, islamic, pagan. Infact since paganism and earth magic was the original belif system over here in teh UK and Ireland (scotland and wales) and it still has a strong following today....."

These pagans are hardly legitimate as such traditions were transmitted via bardic song, which have been lost with the ages. Put simply, the traditions are dead. Thor, Zeus or the fianna cycle, take your pick, have little relevance in the west as far as religion and spiritual worship are concerned. Snorri Sturluson, wrote the eddas (main source of pagan Norse myth) centuries after Christianity was adopted in Iceland. Via Bardic tradition, as past on through his family, Snorri wrote the eddas - but Sturlusons account is very "Christianised"! I ask you how a pagan in todays world might conduct his rite to Thor? Or how he may legitimately claim to be of the Norse, Celtic or Greek pagan traditions.
In the end it may be acceptable or even cool to walk in the footsteps of Athena or pay homage to Macool the Celtic hero, but in reality nobody can trace the worship as an unbroken line. I have heard claims of Swedes adopting the old ways of paganism - Thor and all! But don’t hold your breath for the berserkers or long boat craftsmen, as these crucial features of the tradition are but memories of a great pagan heritage that faded with the Vikings.

Big D....when i said thats the appearance of all of them, i meant to the general public. while i can appriciate that it isnt teh teachings or belif systems that make you a nutty murderer...it's whats inside that does....most people simply dont care, and they hear that your "" and they make the assuption that your a card carrying suicide bomber. it's the same for those of us into animal rights.

youve gotta remeber WarAngel.....it's not the faiths that kill or cause trouble...it's the people who do what they wish and use their name. anyone with common sense knows you can look under a stone and find your god, but the christians will have you belive you should donate all your money to repair their church roof.

"Thank-you, I was speaking of the Christian world as in Europe and western culture" there you go again Besimudo......grouping all us europeans in as bibal bashers. because a certain faith was more viloent than others and became commercially enticing, that doesnt mena we are all of that faith.what about the norse who for a long time and still do belive in teh norse gods, these themselves stemmed from the ancient slavic mythologies and gods.
Also it's quite rude of you to say that - "These pagans are hardly legitimate" when england has NEVER abandoned that faith and belif which is why thousands still worship it today. i can say teh same about the jokers who go with their grannys to churches or the nutty people who use their religions to kill as we are seeing in far off lands. theres so many people who follow paganism and earth magic around here in the north east you carnt turn your back for them. try visting www.Darkforum.com. manchester and newcastle have an astounding amount of norse followers. yes the celts and gauls did carry many stories etc by song, thats how their civilisation did it....it's perhaps more correct than the cribbles by monks as many times it's shown where they were bribed and coerced into fiddling with the details of history. theres a saying "history isnt true, it's only ever written by the winners".
If one man belives in a certain religion or fiath, in the greek gods and goddess or the babylonian, then it isnt dead. national funding, great churches and regular converts does not define a faith. if you like check out the pagan federation at pagan dawn. but im not a pagan so im not pushing you

"Also it's quite rude of you to say that - "These pagans are hardly legitimate" when england has NEVER abandoned that faith and belif which is why thousands still worship it today. i can say the <sic> same about the jokers who go with their grannys to churches or the nutty people who use their religions to kill as we are seeing in far off lands."

Sorry, but the last speaker of the Manx language died in 1973, and Gaelic barely remains in tact...without the songs of delivery.
The fact that GRANNY can take the kids to church is what counts... I don't see any old witches taking their kids along to the 'Easter tree sacrifice'... As opposed to this I see young people attempting to conduct a mystical experience, via paganism, that asserts itself on some spiritual level but yields no significant or lasting insights. I believe that many young scholars start out investigating Paganism, and this is good as it certainly provides important insights into Christianity (the living tradition). However, one must concede that the delivery, prayer and traditions are gone and only their structures remain e.g. Stonehenge, the monoliths, the Viking remains and in other parts of the world...the Moai at Easter Islands.

"Also it's quite rude of you to say that - "These pagans are hardly legitimate" when england has NEVER abandoned that faith and belif <sic> which is why thousands still worship it today."

No, thousands have became obsessed with the pagan traditions, and then believed they could resurrect it...spells and all. None of this worship has an unbroken line from its prophets to the current form. Imagine if the Christian line was broken then hundreds of years latter scholars attempted to resurrect the religion...it would be quite ludicrous! Perhaps you should read up on the emergence of Christianity in Britain and the disappearance of the Druidic class. In 432 A.D. St. Patrick brought a new era of religion to Ireland that eventually grew to incorporate elements of the old and new such as the Celtic crosses.

Actually Manx itself is being tought in several primary schools in wales and ireland, noteworthy enough to appear over here on both country file and the news, it was funny to see a six year old teaching jhon craven how to speak it when he didnt have a clue. for a number of reasons, one such being the reintergration of old but not forgotten or lost identity. it's a tricky thing to get round your toung but the children enjoy it and it's moving into later schools as well.
if you havent been on any pagan celebrations then i feel sorry for you, perhaps you want to vist Glastonbury outside of the music festival where you will find a horad of such events and peoples. that said the pagan federation meetings are pretty large here in the north east and you canrt turn around for finding witchs of all ages. But then again Easter is actually a pagan celebration that the christians effectivly stole, the name refers to a celtic goddess as does the date which is exactly the same date that teh celts celebrated it...heck even the germanic faiths and the slavic which became russia held egg ceramonies of rebirth. MOST christian celebrations are pinched from other faiths....so when you practise them.....your actually doing what the ancient celts and pagans did. i know hundreds of people who stick to the seasonal celebrations of the equinoxes and beltane was only a couple of days ago. In fact over briton i hear and meet more people who attend and do pagan celebrations than i do christian ones. but everyones entitled to pray to whoever they want to.

of course you have to bear in mind that when the romans came to invade briton they went on a massacre of not only assimilatig it's peoples but they burned, raped and killed untill they annihalted the druids. due to celtic society we didnt write recoreds, we told our storys and lives in song and words, the druids did teh same, the fact that the mabinogion and other celtic tales, even that the romans cept very detailed records of boudica means that they werent "broken", tell me how unbroken christianty would look if they were besiged in such a manner. that said you could hardly claim that the pope and bishops etc actually hold true or belive in god. reliogns dont require an unbroken line of worship the same way bloodlins to royalty do. if so then the whole point of converts would be moot.

Don't blame the Islam itself. As far as I've understood, Qur'an says that men are to respect and honor women. It doesn't tell to beat the crap out of them.

Also, according to the laws of Islam a man and a woman have the right to choose their partner and they should not be forced into marriage. So, it's just cultural thing. Not religious.

Yep, the reason women are "forced" to wear a burqua is because women are "holy" and "untouchable," according to the Qur'an. A man is not allowed to see any part of her body unless he is given that privilege.

Of course, there are some followers of Islam who, like some followers of other faiths, who choose to twist the words around to their own advantage.

im not blaming islam Mik.....like most relions which wish to assimilate the world, people will use them for what they wish. it's sad that many people claim they follow these faiths and then contort them to equal death. but then isnt it islam who says that if you leave the faith you will be killed?

but then isnt it islam who says that if you leave the faith you will be killed?
No.

hmmmm. well i honestly carnt remeber. but it was one such faith....this chap who was jewish, im sure he converted to islam, just like cat stevens. and he stated and accepted that if he ever left teh faith, he would be killed

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

"Actually Manx itself is being tought in several primary schools in wales and ireland"

Irrelevant! The pronunciation would be terrible without a native speaker... Have you heard the phrase: text-book French?

Gaelic is legitimate as 30% of Ireland speak it, but Manx is dead.

"if you havent been on any pagan celebrations then i feel sorry for you, perhaps you want to vist Glastonbury outside of the music festival where you will find a horad of such events and peoples."

We have similar Chinese Dragon festivals in Australia, due to the Chinese "gold rush" heritage... But we do not hold to ancient Taoism! Celebrating these pagan festivals is quite fun and entertaining, but they do not reveal and religious truths.

"But then again Easter is actually a pagan celebration that the christians effectivly stole, the name refers to a celtic goddess as does the date which is exactly the same date that teh celts celebrated it"

I insinuated this rudimentary fact in my last post... The fact is that it does not matter. These celebrations have been Christianised so the European with his ailing native faiths (pagan) could ascend back into a full religious environment. What you are suggesting is Paganism can be fully restored, and people will reach enlightenment through this forgotten road. This is false as Paganism has not produced any avatars (saints) since the B.C. times before writing... Not to mention the priest cast (Druids as you know) are extinct!

Christianity would cease if the priests disappeared and anyone who attempted to resurrect the religion would be engaging in the same fallacy.

"In fact over briton i hear and meet more people who attend and do pagan celebrations than i do christian ones. but everyones entitled to pray to whoever they want to."

We are not saints so we have to conduct our faith within an established living tradition e.g. Christian, Islam, Buddhist, Zen...
Paganism and its practice can be researched but unless it is passed down in an unbroken line then it is irrelevant. But the stories and myths are still informative though.

I might add that religion is serious stuff, the best paganism can do is to compliment a tradition. Sure, I read the sagas and the pagan texts but having doen so I dont pick up a staff and run around in robes talking about Ye olde mystik magikes... Thats just for sad euro-goths. You’re kidding yourself if you believe people can live as the Vikings or ancient celts, today.

"of course you have to bear in mind that when the romans came to invade briton they went on a massacre of not only assimilatig it's peoples but they burned, raped and killed untill they annihalted the druids. due to celtic society we didnt write recoreds, we told our storys and lives in song and words, the druids did teh same, the fact that the mabinogion and other celtic tales,"

Yes, It is sad and occurring in Africa as we speak. You must remeber that Many Irish converted willingly as did the Vikings. Christianity spoke the truth as they heard it...Paganism was to abstract for the modern world. I can be a Christian, go work, go to school, and operate in this society. To be a Pagan, I would need to abstain from these things and live in the wild and actually see the gods in the forms of nature. One could argue that these older religions were in fact closer to the divine as the divine was everyday... For the Christian society, we can only relate spiritually at given times, however, Christianity is a more robust religion for this reason.

"tell me how unbroken christianty would look if they were besiged in such a manner. that said you could hardly claim that the pope and bishops etc actually hold true or belive in god. "

Address your own faith first.

"if so then the whole point of converts would be moot."

Well, they are adopted into the living tradition. They can see it, and experience the pain of Christ and then repent. Tell me how a young man today can attain the natural state of "berserker", getting up the next morning and eating crumpets with honey is hardly the experience of the pagan. Pagan religion was similar to that of Indigenous Australia and Africa... very pure and very naturalistic. These are wonderful remnants of our heritage and they won’t be forgotten at all. I just hate to see them trivialised by modern people who wish to escape their religion and replace it with a tradition they cannot communicate with.

Note to self: Never get in an argument over religion with Besimudo. It's like fighting a land war in Asia.

just because a langauge is not spoken in public useage in schools, librarys, newspaper periodicles, doesnt mean teh language isnt spoken in particuly the older generations, in house to family, to frineds, in front of the fire, where their dialect stays teh same. However dialecyts can change, come and go in a language, and it's still viable, as proved by teh queens english, yorkshire, liverpuddlion, brummy, all of which is the same british language, just spoken differntly. so it matters little if at the end of the day thye are speaking textbook french or a dialect french, as long as they all understand each other the meanings are the same.

there is only one religus truth, how you live and how you die. and the rest is up for interpretation.

druids arent extinct...my mother is classed as a druidess, theres a number of druid orders which she isnt a member of and as for iconic figures in modern paganism try mentioning the names alister crowly, alexander sanders and many other such stalwarts of the new pagan order and you will find that they are idolised as saints and great people of the day. we create our own saints, and always have done. Because gods real saints are just getting on with it.

Who's vertion of christianty, christs vertion, the diciples vertion, the vaticans vertion or our own unique english vertion...what would continue would be the next generations vertion, full of all it's faith and flaws and richesness that it's always had.

i dont follow anyones established line, just like the tree's dont, the animals dont and teh winds dont, no one directs me, but me, and i talk directly to my gods, not through someone who's apointed themselves too. And if you dont want to count that as paganism, then you can go and argue that out with all the people who have persecuted those of uswho have not toed the line since time began.

Of course you carnt go jumping at your roman antagonisers in your class, shaking and threatening to punch them....oh wait you werent at the last wednesdays broadsword class i teach where someone who's clearly roman sparked my celtic blood off enough to teh point i crushed him into teh floor and walked out so that i didnt kill him. Of course celtic, roman feuds are long buried beneath euro goths.
Everything is ment to evolve, if we were meant to stay stagnent the dinosaurs would still be discussing this.

Christianty is more robust, only because it kills other belifs. Strangely enought i dont need to live in the woods all my lifes, which by teh way have only been planeted recently to be able to know which direction teh wind is blowing from, where teh sun rises and sets and when teh tide is coming in and out. if i wanted to sit on my arse all day, on my sofa, reading a book, i could still know that because the weather man told me. and should i choose to communicate with any of the deitys, which i may or may not belive exist, i dont actually need to wander down to a huge manmade eddifice, called a church, to be able to hear their response, dont you have a garden ?

"address your own faith first"
thats the point, we dont need to rely on anybody else, whos drawing a salary, to remind us that teh sun comes up every morning and teh moon comes up afterwards. likewise theres no well payed religous fanatic telling us we are going to hell, yet we still do the right thing on this planet, which includes not putting others down.

are you trying to say the ancient warrior who became a berserker hadnt had supper the night before or breakfast. maybe you should try going out and finding a coause thats worth fighting for, and see how hard it is to become a berserker while defending innocents even tho youve had a breakfast. It does useually help. maybe youve never faced down shotgun weilding thugs who were killing rabbits, maybe youve never been in the depths of your own territory, run by shotgun weilding thugs and have to survive, mabe if you did youd find how easy it is to become a berserker, no matter what your faith is. <!--you sanctamuneus little :bou::bou::bou::bou:.-->*snip*

to each his own :cool:

Snowman, that language is considered flaming and flaming is not permitted here. Watch it. ~ Leeza

Also, please do not double-post. Use the edit/delete button if you wish to add something to what you've already posted. Thank you.

Violence against women, treating them as inferior has long been humanity's shame - no culture is innocent of it.
Women weren't inferior to men in Hawaiian culture.

nor egyption

Amen to that.

"So it matters little if at the end of the day thye are speaking textbook french or a dialect french, as long as they all understand each other the meanings are the same."

errr... NO. The Germanic and Celtic traditions rely on complex alliteration for there delivery. This is why worship and songs varied from tribe to tribe. Accent and dialect were CRUCIAL in which God you worshipped and where you even conducted your rite. This is what annoys me about anybody who claims to practice Paganism - they barely know the rudimentary let alone the interpretive modes of discovery within the tradition. And I can promise you these modes are lost...

"there is only one religus truth, how you live and how you die. and the rest is up for interpretation."

No, the whole of Europe is primarily Judaeo-Christian, with a minority of Muslim. The fact that our traditions have similarities to Pagan tradition is merely to make the Christian worship more accessible to the early pagans, who in most cases had become detached from the older naturalistic worship. Christian religion is more succinct than Pagan and is therefore more suited to the civilised world. Paganism is ideal in the primal world of Vikings and Celts, where Thor as the wolf is a living identity... Where do you see a lone wolf in its element these days? Usually wolves are found scrambling around trash cans, scavenging human refuse and this is certainly not the Thor the pagans worshipped! Thor was top down… he gave gifts to humans form nature e.g. the wolf as a guide at night or the bear (in some myths) as the delegate for honey used in traditional medicine - not bottom up … as in taking human refuse from rubbish. This is why animal lore is dead.

Jesus on the other hand is less obvious in nature, and more esoteric in sanctified worship. Jesus loves you, therefore you have meaning... We can find truth in the urbanised decay of the modern world... Pagan traditions cannot. Rome had become so polluted with modernism that it had lost all meaning from the ancien regiem. Christianity (treaty of Milan) brought a new age of spiritualism to Rome and hence Romans became aware of the eternal truth again.

"druids arent extinct...my mother is classed as a druidess"

You need to read your history... Druids went extinct - its just that many people today seek a new identity in the old traditions. My late mother was considered a white witch as she could predict events and astral project... But she did not make this her religion! she still had reverence for the Catholic living tradition. To her magic was just an illusion of this world... it did not contain the unchanging religious truth.

"Of course you carnt go jumping at your roman antagonisers in your class, shaking and threatening to punch them....oh wait you werent at the last wednesdays broadsword class i teach where someone who's clearly roman sparked my celtic blood off enough to teh point i crushed him into teh floor and walked out so that i didnt kill him. Of course celtic, roman feuds are long buried beneath euro goths.
Everything is ment to evolve, if we were meant to stay stagnent the dinosaurs would still be discussing this."

Europeans are mixed, only Icelandic people can claim "purity" these days. The fact that you beat up a student over racial tension, puts into question your ability to instruct courses in swordsmanship. I would never kick the crap out of a guy in martial arts class based on his heritage.
However, I am sure the Euro-gothz would admire such actions.

"dont you have a garden ?"

Yes I do, and I often ponder about Guan Yu when I see the Gingko Biloba, Or of Thor when I plant Digitalis Purpurae BUT I do not take this as my own mode of worship as it is not a valid path. I do not reject the pagan myth, I just reject those who believe it is a valid course of salvation... This does not mean you cannot glean religious ideas from them. Many Christian myths are derived from Greek ones.

"are you trying to say the ancient warrior who became a berserker hadnt had supper the night before or breakfast."

It was an analogy! People today eat Bradshaws honey baked crumpets with Mickey Mouse Jam... Hardly the stuff of a true Berserk! Agree?

"maybe youve never faced down shotgun weilding thugs who were killing rabbits, maybe youve never been in the depths of your own territory"

A wild weekend; though if these “thugs” were shooting rabbits for game (which is what most “thugs” do in their spare time) a shotgun is hardly the choice weapon.

You know you play too much FF when you use ellipses in excess. :)

You know you play too much FF when you use ellipses in excess.

...HAha...

No, they become more common as I attempt to streamline my posts, which obviously did not work in the previous post; as it was considerably long.

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

A little (somewhat crappy) poem dedicated to these mighty dots...

...Ellipses...

No real RPG can be without them...
They add dramatic impact...
They tell you that a character means to say something... but doesn't know how to express it.
They make the world go 'round.

...Ellipses...

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...

Hahaha

What you were saying sounded really....interesting!

I was.... really happy to read the post... and I have respect for everyone.

In fact I really wanted everyone to know that what we are doing is right... It is not really good, but then again... what is it all about at...all.

We need to stick together [and level up] if we want to beat her... even though I love her. (Just to add depth to the end boss).



..........Thank you.

...

whatever, your not even talking sense

Ok, enough spam in this forum - the same rules apply here as to EoEO. (Perhaps that should be more clear on the front page too.) I've tempbanned Vaan from this forum - I don't want to have to do this to anyone else in here.